BG's Bop Experiment

[captainwrong]

I have really been digging on the Benny Goodman "bop" recordings from the late 40s. Stuff like Undercurrent Blues and Benny's Bop on Hep is just really hitting me right. I don't know why. It's not full strength bop, it's not quite swing. Maybe it's Wardell? I really don't know, I only wish there was more of it.

So, who's with me on this stuff? It seems like maybe this period isn't so well looked upon. At the very least, this stuff is a little more obscure. None of these recordings are especially easy to find these days.

More importantly, where can I find more like it? Or is this just an anomaly and these BG records stand alone?

[BeBop]

I REALLY like Wardell, but the whole package didn't work for me. There's always this "disconnect" between the boppers and the rest of the band. Listen, for example, to the Hucklebuck. Lame, lame, lame, then here's come's Wardell, blowing some nice lines, then we're back to lame. The best stuff, in my opinion, was the small group broadcast material with and without Stan Hasselgard and

By the way, check out this thread and broadcast:

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=52954

Other material that's kind of similar, but, in my opinion, better are the bands of Earl Hines and Billy Eckstine from the earlier 40's. There's also nice material for Wardell with Basie circa 1950-51.

Edited June 15, 2009 by BeBop

[gmonahan]

I have really been digging on the Benny Goodman "bop" recordings from the late 40s. Stuff like Undercurrent Blues and Benny's Bop on Hep is just really hitting me right. I don't know why. It's not full strength bop, it's not quite swing. Maybe it's Wardell? I really don't know, I only wish there was more of it.

So, who's with me on this stuff? It seems like maybe this period isn't so well looked upon. At the very least, this stuff is a little more obscure. None of these recordings are especially easy to find these days.

More importantly, where can I find more like it? Or is this just an anomaly and these BG records stand alone?

I've always had a weakness for Benny's bop stuff. It would be an understatement to say he never got into it like other swing band leaders did (like Charlie Barnett, for example)--he dismissed the whole thing after he disbanded that group. Some of it does sound weird, though! "The Hucklebuck" is sure a case in point! I only count about five sort-of-bop things with Gray on the 4-cd Mosaic set of his Capitol small group recordings. The rest are pretty traditional (but good) swing things.

greg mo

[Big Beat Steve]

Don't get stuck in the rut of studio recordings.

That "Hucklebuck" thing is lame, for sure, but IMO that's not because of the swing vs bop controversy but clearly because here a long-established swing band leader had to get in on the act of covering a current hit (that he probably hated) popularized by up-and-coming R&B bands that blew those sedate big band sections off their stools. Paul Williams and Roy Milton, etc., had it going with that tune, Benny hadn't, and Wardell could not save things alone. Must have been a tough time for those big bandsmen having to play the game of those young turks not only of bebop but also of R&B ...

But live recordings, airshots, etc. do seem to be quite a different matter.

There seem to be quite a few of them out there, and do have their moments, lots of them.

Those featuring Stan Hasselgard and Wardell Gray (issued on Hep and Dragon LPs and elsewhere since) with Benny's boppish band are gems, and there are others. By coincidence an LP titled "Benny in Hollywood Vol. 2" on the (shady?) Swing Treasury label got a spin on my turntable yesterday. Nice stuff from Benny's bop period (some boppish, some less so, but always entertaining, so I'd love to find Vol. 1 in one of those secondhand bins eventually). And there have been a couple more "collector's label" LPs with airshots from that period.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Big Beat Steve

[MartyJazz]

Since your topic subheading asks where to go next, I would highly recommend, if you haven't done so already, getting into Artie Shaw's '49 band which featured modern arrangements by Tadd Dameron, Gene Roland and others. Shaw was much more open to the newer developments than BG ever was, and without getting into the hoary controversy of who was better, Shaw is the clarinetist I've always preferred. Check out the review on the Amazon website:

http://www.amazon.com/Artie-Shaw-His-Orche...9/dp/B0002KQK34

Edited June 15, 2009 by MartyJazz

[Big Beat Steve]

Agreed about Artie Shaw, and don't forget about the Charlie Barnet band either.

In the case of Artie Shaw, the 1949 Thesaurus transcriptions are nice items a bit off the beaten track. The CD in the Amazon review seems to complement previously issued material although I have a doubt if those claims of "previously unreleased" can be totally true if A.S. recorded a total of 35 such transcriptions (as the review says) but those 1949 Thesaurus transcriptions have previously already been issued on THREE LPs on the Solid Sender label (and possibly elsewhere).

For a time the post-war Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey big bands also made some nice "swing with bop ovetones" (with JD featuring young Maynard Ferguson, for example).

Same for the late 40s big band of Buddy Rich.

However, in order to recommend where to go next, where exactly is it that you want to go?

Swing big bands really embracing the "new sounds" (in which case Woody Herman or unknowns such as the bands of Earle Spencer or Tom Talbert would be obvious choices) or big bands steering a middle course of "bopped-up swing arrangements" - or even small bands of the late 40s that are somewhere in between the clear-cut stylistic areas of swing, bebop, etc.?

Edited June 15, 2009 by Big Beat Steve

[captainwrong]

@BBS, that's a good question. I'm really kind of interested in it all. For example, I've been checking out some of Cozy Cole's small group recordings on Chronological Classics from around the same time period. Some of that stuff definitely has a swing to bop feel to it. And I've been a fan of the Rich band from this time. With the BG stuff, I find myself gravitating more towards the small group, but I've always thought Benny's best stuff was in a small group setting. I really dig big band bop when it's pulled off well though.

I agree with your other posts about the airshots, from what I've heard, and I'd also say the V-Disc stuff is pretty smokin' as well. The Hucklebuck is pretty corny though. It's a shame that seems to be the easiest song from this period to hear as it scared me off BG's bop stuff for years. It was Benny's Bop on Hep that made me seriously reevaluate my decision to ignore this period. (I'd love to hear some more Stan Hasselgard as well, for that matter.)

I've been meaning to check out some Herman from this period as well because I know he had some great players in his band. Same with Artie Shaw. I didn't know about the Dorseys though. I will have to check some of those out. (Checking out that CD at your link MartyJazz, thanks!)

And now I'm off to check out Ghost of Miles' radio show on this very thing! How'd I miss that?

[BillF]

I love big band bop and have in my collection tracks by the orchestras from the second half of the forties of Woody Herman, Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Barnet and Benny Goodman. Ghost of Miles did a show a couple of years ago called "Bop Go the Big Bands", with some other great tracks which I don't own, but I haven't been able to locate it in his Night Lights archives. Perhaps he'll provide a link if he reads this.

Edited June 15, 2009 by BillF

[captainwrong]

I love big band bop and have in my collection tracks by the orchestras from the second half of the forties of Woody Herman, Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Barnet and Benny Goodman. Ghost of Miles did a show a couple of years ago called "Bop Go the Big Bands", with some other great tracks which I don't own, but I haven't been able to locate it in his Night Lights archives. Perhaps he'll provide a link if he reads this.

http://wfiu.org/nightlights/bop-go-the-big-bands/

Linked from the BG show mentioned above.

[BillF]

Thanks!

[JSngry]

Since your topic subheading asks where to go next, I would highly recommend, if you haven't done so already, getting into Artie Shaw's '49 band which featured modern arrangements by Tadd Dameron, Gene Roland and others. Shaw was much more open to the newer developments than BG ever was, and without getting into the hoary controversy of who was better, Shaw is the clarinetist I've always preferred. Check out the review on the Amazon website:

http://www.amazon.com/Artie-Shaw-His-Orche...9/dp/B0002KQK34

Yeah, this stuff is PRIMO.

[ghost of miles]

Since your topic subheading asks where to go next, I would highly recommend, if you haven't done so already, getting into Artie Shaw's '49 band which featured modern arrangements by Tadd Dameron, Gene Roland and others. Shaw was much more open to the newer developments than BG ever was, and without getting into the hoary controversy of who was better, Shaw is the clarinetist I've always preferred. Check out the review on the Amazon website:

http://www.amazon.com/Artie-Shaw-His-Orche...9/dp/B0002KQK34

Yeah, this stuff is PRIMO.

Great band indeed. I think about 11 of the 16 cuts on the MusicMasters CD show up as well on the Shaw SELF-PORTRAIT box that came out a few years ago.

Speaking of Shaw...

Confirmation of Mosaic box

Edited June 15, 2009 by ghost of miles

[BillF]

Worth mentioning, too, is the Gene Krupa Orchestra of 1946-47 playing Gerry Mulligan's arrangements of "How High the Moon" and "Disc Jockey Jump". These and ten other Mulligan arrangements from those years can be heard on Gene Krupa Plays Gerry Mulligan Arrangements (Verve) recorded in 1958 and featuring Phil Woods. (To my ears, though, they lack the bop-era fire of those two earlier tracks.)

[Niko]

two albums which i'd consider swing to bop and which i like a lot are ralph burns bijou (a twofer cd of two 10 inch albums for period, quartet with tal farlow) and with a larger band burns jazz studio album... but these are from the fifties...

[Big Beat Steve]

Worth mentioning, too, is the Gene Krupa Orchestra of 1946-47 playing Gerry Mulligan's arrangements of "How High the Moon" and "Disc Jockey Jump". These and ten other Mulligan arrangements from those years can be heard on Gene Krupa Plays Gerry Mulligan Arrangements (Verve) recorded in 1958 and featuring Phil Woods. (To my ears, though, they lack the bop-era fire of those two earlier tracks.)

If you want to have a real look at the transitional 40s era then I'd advise to steer waaaaay clear of those "recreations". Many are just marketing gags that owe their existence to the hi-fi obsession of the 50s. At any rate, reissues of Gene Krupa 40s big band studio and airshots do exist so there is little need to go for "ersatz".

And, Niko, IMHO those Ralph Burns records are indeed a bit late and a different evolutionary step that is quite a bit removed from the BG/Shaw swing-cum-bop big band sounds of the 40s. Not that later "advanced" big bands would be without interest, but the interesting thing about those transitional years is listening to the music in its actual period context.

[Niko]

And, Niko, IMHO those Ralph Burns records are indeed a bit late and a different evolutionary step that is quite a bit removed from the BG/Shaw swing-cum-bop big band sounds of the 40s. Not that later "advanced" big bands would be without interest, but the interesting thing about those transitional years is listening to the music in its actual period context.

what do you mean by later "advanced" big bands? raeburn, thornhill? or really the fifties (kenton, gil evans, something i just forget...)? i was a bit irritated when i first heard george handy (on the zoot sims riverside album, and to a lesser degree burns) expecting something remotely avantgarde... settled the issue for me by thinking that they were not early fifties avantgarde but forties avantgarde... (that said, i know way too little about all these things to contribute anything meaningful...)

[Big Beat Steve]

In the context of THIS debate, when I said "later" I meant "post-1950", i.e. the Fifties.

Raeburn and Thornhill would fall into the 40s, of course. But then again I think you would then have to subdivide those post-WWII big bands again according to whether the "modernist" sounds of those bands lean more towards bebop or whether they might rather be considered part of the "progressive" school. Or to put it another way, if the starting point is Benny Goodman's boppish 1948-49 big band then Raeburn, Thornhill, etc. are a lot farther away from that kind of big band than, say, Artie Shaw's 1949 band or the "modernist" Buddy Rich or Gene Krupa bands (or even the early-post war bop bands of Billy Eckstine and Gerald Wilson).