Billie Holiday Columbia sessions

[Bol]

I'm wondering if any of you have opinions about this. I currently have her "Commodore Sessions". I'm not crazy about it. Most songs are a bit boring, and I've never quite got why she is considered so great. But I would like to give her Columbia sessions a try because: (1) there are some great sidemen, esp. Teddy Wilson and Lester Young; and (2) these sessions are supposed to be so great. I'm wondering which CD would be the best way to dip into this. There is a single CD compilation of some songs with Lester Young, with a very nice cover. Then there is a 2-CD compilation called "Lady Day", which seems a selected version of her big Legacy box set. Then there are the most recent releases of 4 separate CDs called "Billie Holiday Collection". All of these are from Legacy. Any idea as to which is the best to get a feel for these sessions?

One other consideration is that I have vol. 3 of Louis Armstrong's Hot Fives and Hot Sevens, which was released by Legacy at the same time that the Billie Holiday Collection was released. I really don't like the sound on this one. It seems like Sony did some tinkering with the sound to enhance it, and things sound pretty metalic. It may be that this is the best sound that they can get from the Armstrong tracks. But I'm worried that they may have done similar tinkering with the Holiday tracks. (I have the same problem with "The Fabulous Sidney Bechet" recently released by Blue Note.)

In any case, any help would be appreciated.

[AfricaBrass]

I don't know how others feel about this set, but I really like her on the 2 CD Complete Decca Recordings set. That set is what made me a fan.

I love her version of "Good Morning Heartache" on that set.

[kenny weir]

The Commodore is mainly of historical importance as far as I'm concerned. Nice but not vital.

The Decca stuff likewise, for me anyway.

The Columbia stuff is the good.

I suspect, now there is a "complete" Columbia box, you may be able to get a handle on this stuff by picking up cheap/used copies of the Quintessential series that preceded it.

Having said that, the Columbia box is a big (expensive) slice of heaven.

[jazzbo]

I like all the stuff talked about here, but the Columbia is the gem of the. . . ah well Columbia is the stuff.

IF you didn't like the sound on that Armstrong volume, don't blame ya; they have really done wonders with that material now since the complete box set was out, and likewise they have improved the sound on the Holiday material. In your shoes I would get the disc with Young accompanying, which I believe is the newest of the single discs you mention, also there is I believe a two cd set from the complete box set that is a wonderful collection.

I've learned to like the Verve, Decca and Commodore material deeply, but it was the Columbia sides that years ago made me love Billie and they are among thebest jazz sides put out in the thirties. Try them out and I hope you really like them!

[J.A.W.]

IF you didn't like the sound on that Armstrong volume, don't blame ya; they have really done wonders with that material now since the complete box set was out, and likewise they have improved the sound on the Holiday material.  In your shoes I would get the disc with Young accompanying, which I believe is the newest of the single discs you mention, also there is I believe a two cd set from the complete box set that is a wonderful collection.

Now I'm getting confused - Lon, are you saying the sound of the 2003 single-disc Armstrong and Holiday Legacy reissues is improved compared to the Armstrong Legacy box that was released in 2000 and the Holiday Legacy box that came out in 2001? I thought Bol was commenting on the sound of one of the 2003 Armstrong single-disc reissues.

I second your Holiday - Young recommendation: A Musical Romance.

Edited November 15, 2003 by J.A.W.

[jazzbo]

I don't know what I'm meaning, maybe I'm confused.

I think that the most recent remasterings of the Armstrong and the Holiday sound much better than the five or seven separate volumes that Columbia had released of Armstrong, and the nine Quintessential volumes on Holiday, which is what I thought he was talking about.

If not, then I am confused, because I think these recent remasterings sound wonderful, and if he doesn't like the sound of them. . . there's not much jazz from the thirties that will be enjoyed.

Either way I've loved this music long before I had really good sounding versions; I think that the music itself is one of the wonders of the last century.

[AfricaBrass]

I have the old Columbia Jazz Masterpieces individual volumes. Are the remasters a night and day improvement over these, or am I really missing out by not upgrading?

[AfricaBrass]

Lon,

I see we posted at the same time. I guess you already answered my question.

Drats! I can't afford to rebuy this stuff.

[Bol]

Thanks a lot for the replies. I think I will try the Holiday-Young CD, as Lon and Hans recommend. As for the sound quality, I hope it's not the case that I won't like any of the 20's and 30's stuff. For some reason, the latest Armstrong CD I have sounds very harsh and metallic. And I have encountered the same problem with Blue Note's "The Fabulous Sidney Bechet" CD, which was recorded in 1951. So, I was inferring that the (what I consider) unattractiveness of the sound had more to do with remastering than with all recordings of a particular time period. I do not have many pre-1950 recordings, as I am just beginning to get interested in pre-bebop stuff. But I find the sound quality on the Commodore CDs released by Verve, some Blue Note classics CDs put out by Toshiba, and even the old Keynote CDs put out by Mercury much more attractive than the sound quality of the Armstrong and Bechet CDs I have. Bear in mind, I'm not an audiophile. But I think I like the warmer sounds of some older CDs, and some newer remasters (the 2 I mentioned, and also some RVGs) are not very attractive.

[J.A.W.]

Thanks a lot for the replies. I think I will try the Holiday-Young CD, as Lon and Hans recommend. As for the sound quality, I hope it's not the case that I won't like any of the 20's and 30's stuff. For some reason, the latest Armstrong CD I have sounds very harsh and metallic. And I have encountered the same problem with Blue Note's "The Fabulous Sidney Bechet" CD, which was recorded in 1951. So, I was inferring that the (what I consider) unattractiveness of the sound had more to do with remastering than with all recordings of a particular time period. I do not have many pre-1950 recordings, as I am just beginning to get interested in pre-bebop stuff. But I find the sound quality on the Commodore CDs released by Verve, some Blue Note classics CDs put out by Toshiba, and even the old Keynote CDs put out by Mercury much more attractive than the sound quality of the Armstrong and Bechet CDs I have. Bear in mind, I'm not an audiophile. But I think I like the warmer sounds of some older CDs, and some newer remasters (the 2 I mentioned, and also some RVGs) are not very attractive.

Recent Sony remasters (including the Armstrong and Holiday sets, and also the Charlie Christian set) and RVG remasters tend to sound a bit "pumped up" in the higher frequencies, at least on my system. This "boost" may well be the cause of the problems you're describing.

[Bol]

Recent Sony remasters (including the Armstrong and Holiday sets, and also the Charlie Christian set) and RVG remasters tend to sound a bit "pumped up" in the  higher frequencies, at least on my system. This "boost" may well be the cause of the problems you're describing.

I think that's exactly it. These recordings don't sound natural to me. They sound like music on steroids.

Edited November 15, 2003 by Bol

[Bol]

Another question about these Columbia sessions: Am I right in thinking that most of them are small group sessions?

[DrJ]

Yes, absolutely.

I agree with most others here, start with a small 1 or 2 CD compilation if the prior Holiday stuff you have heard doesn't grab you. The Columbia stuff is easily the best among the Commodore, Decca, and Columbia eras (later Verve stuff is great in my view too, but probably not the place to start)...my suspicion is you'll fall hard and eventually want the boxed set.

[jazzbo]

I think it's system dependent. On systems that tend towards brightness some of the Columbia material can sound strident. On most systems I have heard them on however, they are clearly superior to their earlier counterparts, and sometimes better than Universal releases etc.

The interesting thing to my ears is that these sound very much like the 78s that I have heard on my parents' thirties 78 player. . . (used to be my fathers' parents') ! I spent some time listening to the 78s my dad started collecting in the last few years in his den in his house in Ohio late this spring. . . . An ear-opening experience.

Edited November 15, 2003 by jazzbo

[John L]

I think that the latest remasters of the Billie Holiday Columbia recordings are miraculous. It is like night and day with all previous releases. You may find fault with the brightness or other specific qualities, but there is no denying that the music is present in a way that it never was in the past. Billie and Pres are brought closer to you.

[Harold_Z]

Lon hit it on the head. It IS system dependant and any particular system may not be optimum for a particular remastering. Perhaps fiddling with the EQ can help.

Just prior to the release of the latest Armstrong remastering, WKCR played many of the original 78s on air with only "on the fly" EQ'ing . They sounded incredible (they also played the ODJB 78s on another show - also incredible). It is a credit to the recent remasterings that they have essentially sucessfully transferred the sound of the 78s to CD.

I've owned the Armstrong and Holiday material in many diferrent issues. The Columbia lps from the 50s sounded great, as did the Frence CBS complete issue. Without a question the late 80s - early 90s Armstrong issues (at least the 1st 2 volumes) were the worst issues I heard, and I found them totally unlistenable - I just continued on with my lp issues. I think the recent issues are the best I've heard. (BTW - the earlier cd issues improved as the series progressed chronologically. By the time it got to the big band material it sounded OK to me).

The early "Quintessential" Holiday issues were not as bad as the earlier Armstrong cds , but nowhere as good as the latest remaster.

[J.A.W.]

Lon hit it on the head. It IS system dependant and any particular system may not be optimum for a particular remastering. Perhaps fiddling with the EQ can help.

OK, but not all systems have "EQ fiddling" facilities.

I agree, though, that the current Armstrong, Holiday and Christian box sets are the best sounding remasters ever (although the JSP Armstrong set is very good too), system dependent or not. On my system the harshness more or less disappears after a 10 to 15-minute run in.

Edited November 15, 2003 by J.A.W.

[Bol]

All of this is very interesting. I actually tried listening to my Bechet with the trebles lowered last night, and it did sound more congenial than before. I'd hate to think that my preferences for TOCJs over RVGs have been motivated by the modesty of my system.

In any case, more importantly, I will pick up a Holiday Columbia CD this afternoon, and see whether I like it. I imagine it will take a while before I can say I like or dislike it. For some reason, with pre-bop stuff, my reactions are slower in developing. Except for some Coleman Hawkins stuff -- there, the reaction was immediate!

Thanks again to everyone.

[jazzbo]

Bol, it's not purely the "modesty" of your system; it's really the nature of the system, as Hans has a topnotch system that tends to be brighter than some others. Hans' system likely sounds FANTASTIC on vinyl and analog tape and some cd remasterings; some cds that sound fantastic on mine don't on his and vice versa. . . . A revealing system will reveal not only the recordings, but how your room interacts with the system, and the choices one makes with cabling, isolation and power choices, etc.

AND it takes a while for the sound of the recordings of earlier jazz to register in the ear. I didn't develop a taste for this music overnight, and even when the music grabbed me it took me a while to comfortably mine the material because of the sound. On the flip side of that, I find an immediacy to the best of the earlier recordings that I find very lacking in multitracked, multiperformance etc. recordings of today. A group of guys positioned around one microphone all together giving it their best for that three minute trip the cutting needle makes. . . it demanded a spirit and a skill set that is different than modern methods require. And the music is different. . . . And the sound has an immediacy and directness akin to the immediacy and directness of the medium, or at least. . . that's how I hear it these days.

Edited November 16, 2003 by jazzbo

[Bol]

Tentative verdict: very good.

I actually bought the newest 24-bit remasters (4 CDs) from Legacy. I bought all 4 of them because I had a 20% coupon at Borders, and thought I will open and listen to one of them and return the others if I did not like the one. Well, I liked vol. 2 enough to open the others yesterday, and so far I really like these. I am still not completely won over by Billie Holiday's voice and her mannerisms. But they are more attractive here than on the Commodores. And at times, she is very charming. More importantly, the sidemen are just amazing. They are the chief attractions for me. And I have to say that Holiday, unlike many singers, really interact well with her sidemen. I can tell that I will like these more and more.

And I'm not having any problem with the sound quality of these CDs -- even without adjusting my trebles. They sound very full and warm.

These sessions contrast with and complement nicely the Goodman RCA small group sessions that I have. And Teddy Wilson is just an amazing anchor or frame (or whatever metaphor you want) on all these sessions.

Now, I'm thinking of getting a Mildred Bailey CD. I think there is a new one from Legacy.

I wish Columbia or Mosaic would put out box sets of Teddy Wilson sessions. Benny Goodman small group sessions, and Basie small group sessions. Those would be very nice.

Edited November 17, 2003 by Bol

[jazzbo]

Whew! I'm glad you really liked the sound!

[Bol]

Whew! I'm glad you really liked the sound!

Thanks for being so concerned, Lon!!

[Bol]

...my suspicion is you'll fall hard and eventually want the boxed set.

Alas, I think DrJ was right. I'm really enjoying the Holiday Columbia CDs I got. And today I was at a B&N, and was salivating at the sight of the Legacy box set. I really didn't want this. The 4 CDs I got contains 72 tracks. Do you think the box set is worth the money? I think it has 200 some tracks.

[J.A.W.]

Do you think the box set is worth the money? I think it has 200 some tracks.

It most certainly is.

[jazzbo]

I have to agree. . . get it at the best price you can. . . it's a great investment that will bring years of enjoyment.