Why was the Stan Getz thread deleted?

[catesta]

Somebody better start a new board name suggestion thread.

[Dan Gould]

Maybe the Orgasmo jazz forums?

(sorry, had to go there)

I'd go with Orgasmatron

but I'm afraid Woody Allen is a bit litigious these days.

[7/4]

[catesta]

The slogan....

Moderators?... We don't need.. no stickin' moderators!

[neveronfriday]

I think I need to take a lesson from Cath. Smart lady!

Online life is tough, ain't it?

How much does Cath charge?

I hope a good and stiff Cuba Libre will do?

Yes?

Please?

[paul secor]

I've defended this place more times than I can count as a home of reasonable people and great information. I've also defended it as "not being as bad as other boards". but I've been spending a lot of times on other forums lately. In particular, on a forum run by Keyboard Magazine. And as expected, since the forum reflects on the magazine, they run a tight ship over there. And everybody knows it and acts accordingly and there are no stupid tit for tat exchanges or direct insults or general personal ugliness over there.

I'm sorry to say it, but Volkher speaks the truth. This board has, overall, been more of an albatross to our career than not. It is unfortunate that people cannot separate the forum from the band, but that's the way it works. The best solution may be to separate the two in name (ie, re-naming this place), although the link is already etched and the damage has been done.

I don't think Bev has anything to apologize for. She is a wake-up call. This is not an insular environment; we're talking about real people with real families and loved ones that are still living. I believe we should be able to talk about all aspects of a musician's career including the "negative" parts, but do so in a respectful manner and without spreading rumors.

I will be completely honest here: A big part of me wanted to shut the board down the other day and just walk away. As I weigh the pros and cons I can't help but think that I'm crazy to keep it going. We've gotten a few gigs from it (thanks Barack and Ron!) and sold a couple hundred CDs through it. Is it really worth the trouble not only to me personally but the band in general? When I opened this place, I thought it would be a boon to the band... get our name out there... well, it certainly has done that, but not in a good way.

But I also feel a responsibility to the membership here. I have made some really good friends through this place. A lot of people come here and enjoy the information. And so I'm racking my brain trying to figure out a way to reel it in and not kill the spirit of the board. Bare with me as I figure out the best way to do just that.

In the meantime, I will say this: I will not tolerate rudeness and insults between members of the board anymore. This includes the political forum, although there will be a bit of leeway there.

Everyone should read this and think about how close the board came to being closed down. All of us should think about whether our egos and personalities are more important than the existence of the board.

Jim makes part of his living by playing music. It's a terrible thing that stuff posted on this board has hurt his career. Shouldn't be.

[clifford_thornton]

Maybe the Orgasmo jazz forums?

(sorry, had to go there)

I'd go with Orgasmatron

but I'm afraid Woody Allen is a bit litigious these days.

Should be - American Apparel is a terrible company.

[clifford_thornton]

Everyone should read this and think about how close the board came to being closed down. All of us should think about whether our egos and personalities are more important than the existence of the board.

Jim makes part of his living by playing music. It's a terrible thing that stuff posted on this board has hurt his career. Shouldn't be.

I think it was about a year ago that some similar stuff went down and more moderators were brought in. But it doesn't seem like the moderation has increased in scope. Which makes sense, I guess, because it's not a job that most of us in the posting community want to do. Hopefully increased moderation will calm things down a bit but certainly a name change might be worth looking into.

I mean, this is a great resource though I admit I'd get a hell of a lot more done if it were unavailable...

[J.A.W.]

l'Histoire se repète...

This thread immediately reminded me of the stuff that went on late 2007, which almost resulted in this board being closed down. In other words, nothing has changed. I said all I wanted to say about it then - which is roughly the same as Volkher (neveronfriday) posted then and now - and also in the thread where Chris A. announced he was leaving and I'd like to leave it at that.

I totally agree with Volkher and catesta and I'm glad Jim has now decided to moderate this place much more strictly.

Edited May 22, 2009 by J.A.W.

[Guest youmustbe]

A lot of not much about anything regarding not much about anything.

Posts on blogs are mostly bullshit posted by males whether they're about music, sports, politics, whatever. And they ususally descend into name calling, juvenile jokes etc. Just look at the 'suggestions' for changing the name of the forum. High school humor at it's finest!

I may be wrong, but I don't believe this forum is so important that people's bad behavior will influence the way America goes forward in the 21st century.

Much ado about not much.

[JSngry]

And now, can we let it go and move on?

[Jim Alfredson]

Ok, Cliff. You don't like Allen. We get it.

I am at fault for his behavior and others as well, allowing the posts. As others have noted, he is extremely intelligent and has a lot of information to share. That's what this is about. Let's share the information and loose the crap. It should start here, in this thread.

No more insults, no more crap.

[clifford_thornton]

A lot of not much about anything regarding not much about anything.

Posts on blogs are mostly bullshit posted by males whether they're about music, sports, politics, whatever. And they ususally descend into name calling, juvenile jokes etc. Just look at the 'suggestions' for changing the name of the forum. High school humor at it's finest!

I may be wrong, but I don't believe this forum is so important that people's bad behavior will influence the way America goes forward in the 21st century.

Much ado about not much.

I don't think there is anything wrong with occasional lapses into juvenilia - we're human. It's when that juvenile behavior is hurtful and negative that problems arise.

[JSngry]

I guess we can't.

[Cliff Englewood]

I guess we can't.

Yes we can, I just like to get the last word in.

[JSngry]

I guess we can't.

Yes we can, I just like to get the last word in.

Then Jim, please delete this post, close this thread, and let sanity attempt to regain its tenuous hold on this place.

[7/4]

[neveronfriday]

And now, can we let it go and move on?

31 thousand posts and the same stance as always.

I'm on a roll here and don't care, so let's just ...

You wanna let this go?

How about you, an oldtimer and a respected voice if I ever saw one, one of sublime reason, taking a stance?

You want people to ruin Jim's career?

Didn't think so.

Man, I learned so much from you ever since the inception of this board, tons (!), and you know what, I'm really disappointed. Whenever things come to head, you pull back and give your voice of reason line. Yes, I can sympathize because life is what it is, and I - as well as you - don't want the Internet to take over our real lives, but - from almost a decade of experience - you run for cover every single time things explode.

Say your piece (peace) and get on with it. Let Chris and Allen and so many, many others be part of this by letting them know that not everything is cool. Man, see your responsibility here: You are a cornerstone of this board, no doubt about it, and I, personally, damn well expect you to take a stance.

If you like it or not, WE (me and everyone else) need this board and we also depend on YOU (yep, you!) to take a stance.

You have a responsibility, like it or not. Why? Because I and everyone else respect you!

Make it live, help it survive and go that extra inch I haven't seen in a long while.

Do it!

[Dan Gould]

That's the best thing you've posted in a while 7/4, but couldn't you have cropped all of her head?

Edited May 22, 2009 by Dan Gould

[ghost of miles]

I love this board, but the Getz thread--what it turned into, at any rate--was the first one that ever actually sickened me and made me feel ashamed of this place. Y'know, that's one strike out of however many thousands of threads we've had, and this board is so, so much better than any other jazz discussion forum out there, and polices itself pretty well most of the time. Life's full of unpleasantness and unpleasant stories, gotta be adult if you want the frank, open conversations, but there was something about that Getz thread that was just utterly repulsive. As a board member I'd probably vote to let it stand, but as a personally invested moderator who runs this place, I'd not want it associated with me or my band. That said, I'd really hate to see the board come crashing down over an out-of-control topic...for a sense of proportion, just look at ALL of the active threads on any given day here. Hate to see so much focus on the handful that have gone over the line.

That's my piece and I'd much prefer to move on as well.

Edited May 22, 2009 by ghost of miles

[7/4]

That's the best thing you've posted in a while 7/4, but couldn't you have cropped all of her head?

Stop stalking me Dan.

[JSngry]

And now, can we let it go and move on?

31 thousand posts and the same stance as always.

I'm on a roll here and don't care, so let's just ...

You wanna let this go?

How about you, an oldtimer and a respected voice if I ever saw one, one of sublime reason, taking a stance?

You want people to ruin Jim's career?

Didn't think so.

Man, I learned so much from you ever since the inception of this board, tons (!), and you know what, I'm really disappointed. Whenever things come to head, you pull back and give your voice of reason line. Yes, I can sympathize because life is what it is, and I - as well as you - don't want the Internet to take over our real lives, but - from almost a decade of experience - you run for cover every single time things explode.

Say your piece (peace) and get on with it. Let Chris and Allen and so many, many others be part of this by letting them know that not everything is cool. Man, see your responsibility here: You are a cornerstone of this board, no doubt about it, and I, personally, damn well expect you to take a stance.

If you like it or not, WE (me and everyone else) need this board and we also depend on YOU (yep, you!) to take a stance.

You have a responsibility, like it or not. Why? Because I and everyone else respect you!

Make it live, help it survive and go that extra inch I haven't seen in a long while.

Do it!

I've tried calling Allen out on matters of what I considered flawed reaasoning before & it only escalated things. Rapidly and severely.

Chris, hey, Chris does what Chris does. We've all learned that by now.

I tried being a moderator & that backfired when I expressed some stong opinions. "You're intimidating people with your opinions because you're a moderator" was the line I got from more than a few. So I dropped out as a moderator in order to be able to speak freely and not have that reflected as an "official" position of the board. If desired by Jim, I will return as a moderator, and if not desired, I fully understand.

I respect the hell out of both Allen's & Chris' knowledge but long ago tired of their "issues". They're adults who apparently won't listen to reason (or my version of it anyway, such as it is), so hold them accountable for whatever havoc they wreck. Not me, not Jim, not the moderators, nobody else but they themselves. All of us have issues, but not all of us know when to pull back. It's never too late to pull back.

If you want me to play Big Dick Rick and try to tame adults who have no desire (or, apparently, ability) to tame themselves, you're looking at the wrong guy. I don't play that, it's a no-winner if ever there was one. You either live with them or banish them from your life. Unfortunately, there ain't no in-between.

This is not my board, so it is not my call.

But I will say this - Cliff, stop it. You've made your point more than well. Now move the hell on. Please.

There. It's been said. But I can't "make it happen" just by saying it. Only Cliff can.

[clifford_thornton]

I think there are too many people using the name "Cliff" on this board. I get confused.

[AllenLowe]

jeez, every time I think I'm out...but I had to say something here -

monitoring it all with interest; no surprise that I never found myself offensive, I actually thought I had toned it down considerably for several months - be that as it may, a suggestion for Jim:

why not formulate and post some new guidelines, to protect yourself/the band/and the board? (eg, no repeated posts - ; I actually took you up on that suggestion). Maybe suggest certain kinds of language that should not be used, etc etc - because I tend to think that, given not only the different backgrounds and native languages on this board, people easily misunderstand certain kinds of approaches and tone. Honestly I feel a little clueless these days (as I thought I had actually reigned things in but apparently the perception was otherwise) but would be helped by such guidelines, as it would, by implication, let me (and others) see how things are perceived.

of course there's a difference between taking offense at tone, and taking offense at the substance of what is said, though I know they are often tied together. The problem as I see it here is that sometimes the very opinion is considered to be offensive, and there is no way around that, no way of saying it in a way that won't piss people off. But sometimes people are so pissed of by the opinion that they take it as offensive in tone and attitude. And this, particualrly on a board as freely expressive as this, is a difficult if not impossible thing to counter.

just (another) parting thought -

Edited May 22, 2009 by AllenLowe

[clifford_thornton]

I say shut the board down for a little while until Jim figures out how to revamp it.

Edited May 22, 2009 by clifford_thornton