Why was the Stan Getz thread deleted?

[neveronfriday]

Maybe this makes me sound like a stuffed shirt, but it's what I feel is right.

Not.

At.

All.

[Dan Gould]

No doubt Allen was a mixed bag. I just find it unfortunate that there was a feud with another member who finally succeeded in driving him away. And then posted about it.

[clifford_thornton]

I'd like to know more about the European gigs that fell through as a result of board antics. I know it's not really "my business," but it would help put some of this in perspective.

[JSngry]

No doubt Allen was a mixed bag. I just find it unfortunate that there was a feud with another member who finally succeeded in driving him away. And then posted about it.

One of the most important life lessons I've learned (such as it is, "still learning" is probably more accurate...) is that being right is essentially an exercise in impotentence unless you can concurrently do right.

And that's true for all of us, not just those two.

[catesta]

When I read Jim's comments, I could feel the pain and discomfort he was feeling. I do feel that people should think about what they're doing before they post. Not excepting myself from this - I'm sure that all of us have overstepped the bounds of common courtesy, etc. at various times.

I think that all of us should remember that we are guests here and should try to act accordingly.

Maybe this makes me sound like a stuffed shirt, but it's what I feel is right.

Nah, it's true.

[.:.impossible]

Don't know what went down, but I'd love to see many regulars mellow out a bit on the personal differences. I love this place. I'm addicted to it for recommendations and knowledge on a number of 'genres', but it has become increasing difficult to sift through lately. And by lately, I'm not talking weeks. More like months. Possibly even years. I've found myself avoiding that link on my bookmarks bar at times for a stretch.

I understand it being difficult for members to separate their personal lives from the bulletin board. It is a modern phenomenon, for sure. I just hope that never and B-3er's comments here are taken to heart.

[neveronfriday]

I can suggest better uses for your time too, but I'll refrain.

The board is poorer without Allen. I hope he returs soon.

Sorry to disagree but Allen's bullshit chased away far better quality posters/members than he ever was and will be.

Yes, he chased away me and John (couw) and others, but I'd be the last person to say he didn't have a shitload (!) to contribute. He has a manner I would usually disagree with (hell, always!), but he also had ideas that got me to think twice, three times and four times. The last thing I would say is that Allen didn't know his shit. I would never, ever, formulate that kind of sentiment! I'm actually indebted to him for moving my small German ("Heil!") pea brain an inch further. Even if it wasn't a pea-brain, I learned from Allen's posts (and I would have loved to personally shove a red-hot poker up his ass once, or thirty-three times).

Still, the point I'm trying to make is that Jim and the band do NOT deserve the in-fighting, the fallout and the personal crap posted here.

Allen, I'll single you out here although you are gone (but might possibly be reading along).

Please forgive me.

Jim does not need the Hitler jokes, the personal swipes right and left. He also doesn't need the innuendo and, in my opinion, somewhat cynical stance. I actually concur in many areas (believe me, I do), but this is Jim's jazz board whose limits got buried in a lot of shit you and others posted here. Does that make what you posted unimportant?

--- No! ----

But it asks you to be more restrained, to keep in mind where you're posting what! At all times. This is not a white canvas to splurt some paint onto. Not at all.

I always wonder if "you" (meaning everyone) would allow "you" (meaning everyone) in your own living room.

Probably not, even if you say so.

An agenda is nothing worthwhile to "push", although it might damn well be called for.

There are ways of getting things across.

"Restraint" is called for in a house that is not your own.

"Restraint", for wont of a better word, is called for in an environment, in which you simply won't be allowed to speak your (full) mind. Run out into the street and everyone will hear you! Just don't always fucking blurt out what's on your mind.

Hell, we're all grown-ups. I don't know how many times I had blood running from the tip of my tongue because I bit down hard on it, avoiding what was about to spill out.

This has fuck all to do with censorship.

It has (and call me old-fashioned) everything to do with courtesy.

It has to do with Jim!

All of you, and I mean everyone, owe Jim Alfredson that much.

The crap that has been going on has to stop.

Or you're going to be homeless.

Believe me.

Edited May 22, 2009 by neveronfriday

[Larry Kart]

The main thing is that this board continue to survive and operate in something close to its best current -- or, if you prefer, vintage -- form. And that depends on Jim's judgment and on his willingness (while working as a professional musician) to deal with the problems that at times arise here. I trust the former and am very grateful for the latter.

[Beverly Getz]

can accept the disappearance of the getz thread as a one of a kind thing... but then i saw the thread except for the last three hours or so and i really don't get what was so bad about it... most of the trouble came from "invaders", there was a bunch of interesting information, didn't quite buy the baby story (but then larry didn't pretend it was true for certain...) but besides that bev didn't have much more to say than "i know dozens of stories that are even worse but i don't buy these" which i found not as spectacular an addition to the thread than she did... if anybody had thought stan getz was just some guy who had babies for lunch we wouldn't have started that thread (or at least we'd have discussed it differently)... as far as i understood it the thread was about the famous "bunch of guys"

if a thread started by a moderator leads into that much of a hassle i guess that means the rules aren't clear... so if i get jim right and this is a thing that's gonna happen here with some regularity from now on i for one would like to see the rules...

once talked to a photographer who had taken some photos of joe albany sent them to him and albany had sent back a thank you post card and some lps... from reading albany's daughter's book the story is almost unbelievable - but that certainly doesn't mean i don't believe her... just shows once again that people are complicated

You have taken what I wrote out of context "Niko", and made it completely trite. When I mentioned (and this certainly wasn't the predominant point I was making) the "stories"... I was referring to ugly stories about the artists I had grown up around... my dad's peers, if you will. First hand ugliness, that I would never speak about. I was not talking about other disgusting Getz gossip.

I suppose I'm the "invader" you refer to. Well, sorry if I cramped your (or anyone's) style or was the cause of the thread being deleted. But I do have just as much a right to come on here and speak my mind as the next person. As does my very close friend, Svima, who was treated shamefully and attacked for expressing her thoughts and not in a way that was any worse or insulting than what many other people wrote. This forum is open to all. Or... maybe not?

Mr. Kart certainly did imply that "information" was "fact". Here is a quote. " I can't reveal the name of the person who told me the two drug-related Getz stories, but I have every reason to believe that he was a first-person witness to the first of them.". And so what.... If anyone needs to believe this kind of trash, there is nothing I can do or say to stop them.

In that thread, I could have gone point for point and disputed and/or corrected most of those stories and given names of people who could back me up. But I really don't have a need to do that. I'm also well aware that if I start to dissect what people write, I'd leave myself open to the members that would enjoy carving me another a/h. I'm not a person who enjoys arguing for the sake of an argument. Not my idea of "good times".

Honestly? I find this kind of blood lust need to rip someone apart completely repugnant. This garbage that is written, even in jest... is now in print for the ages. I'm not just talking about my father. Nor do I mean just here. I really wonder if these people were still amongst us, any of them who's personalities are always under attack, if these slanderous anecdotes would be written. Probably not, eh? As then people might actually be confronted by the person they were gossiping and lying about.

I thought we had 'moved on'. Clearly not. But if you and others find that the other thread was so enjoyable and titillating I have no objection to it being brought back. I'll just make sure to turn a blind eye and steer clear.

I'll leave you all with these immortal words often spoken by my D.O.D (dear old dad)... and always said in jest...(better add that lest it also gets taken out of context.) "Hey, f*%k 'em in the a** if they can't take a joke".

[neveronfriday]

The main thing is that this board continue to survive and operate in something close to its best current -- or, if you prefer, vintage -- form. And that depends on Jim's judgment and on his willingness (while working as a professional musician) to deal with the problems that at times arise here. I trust the former and am very grateful for the latter.

Larry, I think what I posted here tells you that I have the utmost respect for you.

But you're laying 100% of the burden on Jim's shoulders.

Would you, personally, be prepared for that task?

Give the guy a break!

And kudos to you for bringing so much good music into my life.

[7/4]

You're welcome to stick around Bev. Don't mind them.

.

[catesta]

I can suggest better uses for your time too, but I'll refrain.

The board is poorer without Allen. I hope he returs soon.

Sorry to disagree but Allen's bullshit chased away far better quality posters/members than he ever was and will be.

Yes, he chased away me and John (couw) and others, but I'd be the last person to say he didn't have a shitload (!) to contribute. He has a manner I would usually disagree with (hell, always!), but he also had ideas that got me to think twice, three times and four times. The last thing I would say is that Allen didn't know his shit. I would never, ever, formulate that kind of sentiment! I'm actually indebted to him for moving my small German ("Heil!") pea brain an inch further. Even if it wasn't a pea-brain, I learned from Allen's posts (and I would have loved to personally shove a red-hot poker up his ass once, or thirty-three times).

Still, the point I'm trying to make is that Jim and the band do NOT deserve the in-fighting, the fallout and the personal crap posted here.

Allen, I'll single you out here although you are gone (but might possibly be reading along).

Please forgive me.

Jim does not need the Hitler jokes, the personal swipes right and left. He also doesn't need the innuendo and, in my opinion, somewhat cynical stance. I actually concur in many areas (believe me, I do), but this is Jim's jazz board whose limits got buried in a lot of shit you and others posted here. Does that make what you posted unimportant?

--- No! ----

But it asks you to be more restrained, to keep in mind where you're posting what! At all times. This is not a white canvas to splurt some paint onto. Not at all.

I always wonder if "you" (meaning everyone) would allow "you" (meaning everyone) in your own living room.

Probably not, even if you say so.

An agenda is nothing worthwhile to "push", although it might damn well be called for.

There are ways of getting things across.

"Restraint" is called for in a house that is not your own.

"Restraint", for wont of a better word, is called for in an environment, in which you simply won't be allowed to speak your (full) mind. Run out into the street and everyone will hear you! Just don't alway fucking blurt out what's on your mind.

Hell, we're all grown-ups. I don't know how many times I had blood running from the tip of my tongue because I bit down hard on it, avoiding what was about to spill out.

This has fuck all to do with censorship.

It has (and call me old-fashioned) everything to do with courtesy.

It has to do with Jim!

All of you, and I mean everyone, owe Jim Alfredson that much.

The crap that has been going on has to stop.

Or you're going to be homeless.

Believe me.

V, you're right and I'm not trying to imply Allen was not one of the more knowledgeable members and had his moments of brightness. For me though, a lot of what he said/did came at a major cost. And for a simple mind like mine, I'd rather have the comical relief I found in exchanges with John, yourself and some of those other knuckleheads that have left us. Works for me better than reading a lot of what he felt the need to post.

Just my take.

For the record.

I don't have anything personal against Allen Lowe, and had no personal feuds going with him.

I mean, if and when he decides to return I have no plans of dredging this shit up.

[catesta]

You're welcome to stick around Bev. Don't mind them.

.

Word.

Might be kind of cool to have Stan's daugther in the house on a regular basis. Now, what do we have to do to get Cathy Rich to make an appearance here?

[Beverly Getz]

You're welcome to stick around Bev. Don't mind them.

.

Word.

Might be kind of cool to have Stan's daugther in the house on a regular basis. Now, what do we have to do to get Cathy Rich to make an appearance here?

You are both very kind.. and I appreciate it much.

As for getting Cathy to "play"? NEVER HAPPEN! She flatly refuses to even read the Buddy garbage. I think I need to take a lesson from Cath. Smart lady!

[clifford_thornton]

I know I've been guilty of the "boys' locker room" mentality from time to time and am trying to clean that up.

I think the Getz thread, whatever bullshit might have been part & parcel from the get-go, escalated far beyond that once Sivma and Bev got into it. Sorry Bev, all due respect for your stance, but you were there when the pot got stirred. Clearly you've got some great stories and opinions formulated as a result of those experiences and I hope you stick around, too. But I'm not going to say that calling people out left & right won't raise some hackles - even if you were "there."

And neveronfriday, sorry to see you go, but your comments in this thread are a bit oblique. Really.

[Jim Alfredson]

I've defended this place more times than I can count as a home of reasonable people and great information. I've also defended it as "not being as bad as other boards". but I've been spending a lot of times on other forums lately. In particular, on a forum run by Keyboard Magazine. And as expected, since the forum reflects on the magazine, they run a tight ship over there. And everybody knows it and acts accordingly and there are no stupid tit for tat exchanges or direct insults or general personal ugliness over there.

I'm sorry to say it, but Volkher speaks the truth. This board has, overall, been more of an albatross to our career than not. It is unfortunate that people cannot separate the forum from the band, but that's the way it works. The best solution may be to separate the two in name (ie, re-naming this place), although the link is already etched and the damage has been done.

I don't think Bev has anything to apologize for. She is a wake-up call. This is not an insular environment; we're talking about real people with real families and loved ones that are still living. I believe we should be able to talk about all aspects of a musician's career including the "negative" parts, but do so in a respectful manner and without spreading rumors.

I will be completely honest here: A big part of me wanted to shut the board down the other day and just walk away. As I weigh the pros and cons I can't help but think that I'm crazy to keep it going. We've gotten a few gigs from it (thanks Barack and Ron!) and sold a couple hundred CDs through it. Is it really worth the trouble not only to me personally but the band in general? When I opened this place, I thought it would be a boon to the band... get our name out there... well, it certainly has done that, but not in a good way.

But I also feel a responsibility to the membership here. I have made some really good friends through this place. A lot of people come here and enjoy the information. And so I'm racking my brain trying to figure out a way to reel it in and not kill the spirit of the board. Bare with me as I figure out the best way to do just that.

In the meantime, I will say this: I will not tolerate rudeness and insults between members of the board anymore. This includes the political forum, although there will be a bit of leeway there.

[catesta]

You're welcome to stick around Bev. Don't mind them.

.

Word.

Might be kind of cool to have Stan's daugther in the house on a regular basis. Now, what do we have to do to get Cathy Rich to make an appearance here?

You are both very kind.. and I appreciate it much.

As for getting Cathy to "play"? NEVER HAPPEN! She flatly refuses to even read the Buddy garbage. I think I need to take a lesson from Cath. Smart lady!

I know there is some "I love Buddy" stuff in the history here somewhere, I'll give a looksie. And if there isn't, I'll make some up.

Give me a minute or two. In the mean time get Ms. Rich on the horn.

Edited May 22, 2009 by catesta

[Aggie87]

I'm racking my brain trying to figure out a way to reel it in and not kill the spirit of the board. Bare with me as I figure out the best way to do just that.

I think a name change for the board would be a good start, Jim. We are an established group of people here, and I don't think the name change would affect us. But it would help to disassociate the comments here in the forum from the band itself.

Maybe not linking the renamed board to the band's home page (and vice-versa) would be a good idea, too.

[catesta]

I've defended this place more times than I can count as a home of reasonable people and great information. I've also defended it as "not being as bad as other boards". but I've been spending a lot of times on other forums lately. In particular, on a forum run by Keyboard Magazine. And as expected, since the forum reflects on the magazine, they run a tight ship over there. And everybody knows it and acts accordingly and there are no stupid tit for tat exchanges or direct insults or general personal ugliness over there.

I'm sorry to say it, but Volkher speaks the truth. This board has, overall, been more of an albatross to our career than not. It is unfortunate that people cannot separate the forum from the band, but that's the way it works. The best solution may be to separate the two in name (ie, re-naming this place), although the link is already etched and the damage has been done.

I don't think Bev has anything to apologize for. She is a wake-up call. This is not an insular environment; we're talking about real people with real families and loved ones that are still living. I believe we should be able to talk about all aspects of a musician's career including the "negative" parts, but do so in a respectful manner and without spreading rumors.

I will be completely honest here: A big part of me wanted to shut the board down the other day and just walk away. As I weigh the pros and cons I can't help but think that I'm crazy to keep it going. We've gotten a few gigs from it (thanks Barack and Ron!) and sold a couple hundred CDs through it. Is it really worth the trouble not only to me personally but the band in general? When I opened this place, I thought it would be a boon to the band... get our name out there... well, it certainly has done that, but not in a good way.

But I also feel a responsibility to the membership here. I have made some really good friends through this place. A lot of people come here and enjoy the information. And so I'm racking my brain trying to figure out a way to reel it in and not kill the spirit of the board. Bare with me as I figure out the best way to do just that.

In the meantime, I will say this: I will not tolerate rudeness and insults between members of the board anymore. This includes the political forum, although there will be a bit of leeway there.

If I may make a suggestion.

Post your message loud and clear, I'm sure the majority will follow. If you have to, empower an additional moderator (since MG is out for now) and suspend members temporarily for a slap on thw wrist kind of thing or permanently when they don't follow the rules. Yeah, I know I know, evetually it will just be the three band members, Sangrey and Larry left, but maybe would that be such a bad thing?

Either that or recruit more chicks.

[Larry Kart]

The main thing is that this board continue to survive and operate in something close to its best current -- or, if you prefer, vintage -- form. And that depends on Jim's judgment and on his willingness (while working as a professional musician) to deal with the problems that at times arise here. I trust the former and am very grateful for the latter.

Larry, I think what I posted here tells you that I have the utmost respect for you.

But you're laying 100% of the burden on Jim's shoulders.

Would you, personally, be prepared for that task?

Give the guy a break!

And kudos to you for bringing so much good music into my life.

I'm not "laying 100% of the burden on Jim's shoulders" -- if you took it that way, that's not what I meant. I was just alluding to the fact that it's his board. And I'm certainly willing to think more carefully about what I post here and operate more aggressively as a moderator than I have been.

[catesta]

I'm racking my brain trying to figure out a way to reel it in and not kill the spirit of the board. Bare with me as I figure out the best way to do just that.

I think a name change for the board would be a good start, Jim. We are an established group of people here, and I don't think the name change would affect us. But it would help to disassociate the comments here in the forum from the band itself.

Maybe not linking the renamed board to the band's home page (and vice-versa) would be a good idea, too.

Let me guess.....

AggieFanForums?

Seriously though, that's not a bad idea. You could still link the forums to the band homepage if you wanted, but just call it ___________jazz forums and put up a disclaimer like "the shit said here does not directly reflect the opinion of the band, it's an independent board", etc.etc.

[7/4]

I'm racking my brain trying to figure out a way to reel it in and not kill the spirit of the board. Bare with me as I figure out the best way to do just that.

I think a name change for the board would be a good start, Jim. We are an established group of people here, and I don't think the name change would affect us. But it would help to disassociate the comments here in the forum from the band itself.

Maybe not linking the renamed board to the band's home page (and vice-versa) would be a good idea, too.

[catesta]

I'm racking my brain trying to figure out a way to reel it in and not kill the spirit of the board. Bare with me as I figure out the best way to do just that.

I think a name change for the board would be a good start, Jim. We are an established group of people here, and I don't think the name change would affect us. But it would help to disassociate the comments here in the forum from the band itself.

Maybe not linking the renamed board to the band's home page (and vice-versa) would be a good idea, too.

Hmmm..., so technically a renamed and disassociated board could also be a no holds barred kind of board. I like it!

[neveronfriday]

I'm not "laying 100% of the burden on Jim's shoulders" -- if you took it that way, that's not what I meant. I was just alluding to the fact that it's his board. And I'm certainly willing to think more carefully about what I post here and operate more aggressively as a moderator than I have been.

Larry, for some reason I was too dumb to reply via personal message.

I didn't get a "Send message to ... button" even after I logged in.

So I'll do it here.

That's the stance Jim needs.

Nothing else.

Kudos!

[clifford_thornton]

Maybe the Orgasmo jazz forums?

(sorry, had to go there)