Son-of-a-Weizen Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 I can personally say that Jackie McLean "Demon's Dance" (TOCJ-4345) has been un-findable in my experience. Can't say I've ever seen a copy available at any price. I don't believe that it actually exists. There's the JRVG that you've heard before...plus a couple of TOCJ reissues from 2005 and 2007 (6500 & 7000 series???) No DD in that 4000 Series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) I can personally say that Jackie McLean "Demon's Dance" (TOCJ-4345) has been un-findable in my experience. Can't say I've ever seen a copy available at any price. I don't believe that it actually exists. There's the JRVG that you've heard before...plus a couple of TOCJ reissues from 2005 and 2007 (6500 & 7000 series???) No DD in that 4000 Series. Jackie McLean's Demon's Dance was never issued in the "Blue Note Works" series, so TOCJ-4345 does not exist. Edited June 14, 2009 by J.A.W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riverrat Posted June 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) I don't believe that it actually exists. There's the JRVG that you've heard before...plus a couple of TOCJ reissues from 2005 and 2007 (6500 & 7000 series???) No DD in that 4000 Series. Jackie McLean's Demon's Dance was never issued in the "Blue Note Works" series, so TOCJ-4345 does not exist. This is a classic example of misinformation being picked up by someone (me) and perpetuated via the web. I saw reference to a TOCJ "Works" series issue of Demon's Dance in a long list of titles that ARE part of this reissue series so I just "assumed" it was real. Thank you both for straightening me out. The fact that TOCJ-4345 does not exist would certainly explain why it has proven to be so hard to find... Now if someone could point me to a copy of Art Blakey & the JMs Big Beat TOCJ I would be a Happy Camper... Edited June 15, 2009 by riverrat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son-of-a-Weizen Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) Now if someone could point me to a copy of Art Blakey & the JMs Big Beat TOCJ I would be a Happy Camper... I'd send the HMV Japan folks a quick note and ask them to verify that this is in fact the right disc (they speak english). True, the photo in the item description is incorrect...and there are 7 tracks listed (they've probably bungled and pulled the track info from the 2008 JPN RVG edition (TOCJ-7125) with the extra track) but the June 30, 1993 release date matches up perfectly for TOCJ-4029 ...and that's the key thing to look for in their listings. Also, the 'regular price' info is in line with the original 2,300 Yen figure. So, for $19 plus shipping, probably worth it to drop them a line. http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/20524 Edited June 15, 2009 by Son-of-a-Weizen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riverrat Posted June 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) Now if someone could point me to a copy of Art Blakey & the JMs Big Beat TOCJ I would be a Happy Camper... I'd send the HMV Japan folks a quick note and ask them to verify that this is in fact the right disc (they speak english). True, the photo in the item description is incorrect...and there are 7 tracks listed (they've probably bungled and pulled the track info from the 2008 JPN RVG edition (TOCJ-7125) with the extra track) but the June 30, 1993 release date matches up perfectly for TOCJ-4029 ...and that's the key thing to look for in their listings. Also, the 'regular price' info is in line with the original 2,300 Yen figure. So, for $19 plus shipping, probably worth it to drop them a line. http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/20524 Thanks Weiz. I guess I should pick a couple other titles too, given the likely shipping charge... Edited June 15, 2009 by riverrat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmirBagachelles Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 I have seen new and used TOCJ Works editions of Tina Brooks' Back to the Tracks and Tony Williams' Spring in the past few days. Are there strong +/- feelings as to how these rate compared to the Conn and the JRVGs? I have the JRVG of each, no complaints, but I must admit I really enjoy the relaxed tone of the TOCJs I already own. (I am punting on Capuchin Swing and Blakey Mosaic JRVGs in favor of new TOCJs....) I'd appreciate any of your informed whispers or rants on the Brooks and Williams. Thanks, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riverrat Posted June 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 I have seen new and used TOCJ Works editions of Tina Brooks' Back to the Tracks and Tony Williams' Spring in the past few days. Are there strong +/- feelings as to how these rate compared to the Conn and the JRVGs? I have the JRVG of each, no complaints, but I must admit I really enjoy the relaxed tone of the TOCJs I already own. (I am punting on Capuchin Swing and Blakey Mosaic JRVGs in favor of new TOCJs....) I'd appreciate any of your informed whispers or rants on the Brooks and Williams. Thanks, Dan I'm aware of significantly fewer opinions on individual titles in the BN Works series, probably because these CDs sound remarkably consistent from title to title, compared to RVGs and JRVGs which seem to really vary a lot in overall sound quality. To be sure there are differences in original recording quality, but most TOCJ/BN Works versions share characteristics of being smooth and warm- to my ears more "analog" than many RVGs/JRVGs. When you see criticism of the TOCJs it often takes to form of "overly warm" or "biased toward the midrange with rolled-off highs". On first listen, I used to think I was hearing more detail in RVG/JRVG versions, and this may be true to some extent and/or on some titles. But over time I noticed that many of them sound sort of shrill. I've since learned that this is probably due to many reissue titles being "compressed" in dynamic range and overall louder at a given volume level. And while I'm not much of an audiophile, some RVG/JRVGs just sound BAD- Horace Silver SFMF and Art Taylor at's delight come to mind. I think that the better your system is, the more you will appreciate TOCJs. And if you like the ones you've heard, chances are you will like them all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert h. Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Having been through the early Blue Note CJ28 series - which are essentially pressings of the early McMaster jobs - and the TOCJ permutations - and on to the JRVG's - I vastly prefer the RVG in every case, in fact, long ago dumped any other version. The paranoia and dogma around so-called "compression" and "brightness" coming off the Hoffman board is just plain misinformation and people should take anything coming from there with a huge grain of salt. The TOCJ's are never taken from master tapes. They sound perfectly fine, but somewhat on the flat side, having none of the depth and width, or clarity of the RVG's. They are pleasant - soft sounding, easy, relaxed. Kind of bland that way. Great for bright tweeters and hard sounding digital players as they are indeed rolled off. Better than McMasters which I find very bland and uninvolving. But not nearly as good as RVG's. The RVG's have dynamics that these earlier versions do not. They have great depth and width, with a lot of air around the well delineated individual instruments that gives a real sense of being in the studio. They have bite and attack, but most of all, RVG has brought out a more accurate and realistic tonality where reeds sound like reeds and horns have real brass bite, not soft and diffuse like McMasters, but much closer to what those players really sounded like. Issues of narrowing the (rather pitiful) early stereo images and some uninformed notion of compression (they are indeed a bit louder but nowhere near brickwalled) pale next to the excitement and propulsiveness as tonality. I go for the tone every time. When I used B&W Nautilus speakers, which had rather horrid metal dome tweeters, the RVG's did indeed have more sizzle on top which I suppose could have been mistaken for shrillness of brightness. I suspect that criticism of the RVG's may stem largely from systems with expensive but not very good sounding tweeters. Collectors are just that and little more. The success of the RVG's in the marketplace indicates to me that many music lovers value the RVG's highly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmirBagachelles Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 "Collectors are just that and little more" What does that mean? Audience here is listeners, and astute listeners at that. I think we know our way around Blue Note product, and nobody asserts gospel here, except of course if we are talking speaker cable, wine, and the "marketplace", where the RVG editions trade for $6-8 (you go music lovers!), JRVGs go for $12-15, and the TOCJs goes for $15-20, usually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert h. Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 "Collectors are just that and little more" What does that mean? Audience here is listeners, and astute listeners at that. I think we know our way around Blue Note product, and nobody asserts gospel here, except of course if we are talking speaker cable, wine, and the "marketplace", where the RVG editions trade for $6-8 (you go music lovers!), JRVGs go for $12-15, and the TOCJs goes for $15-20, usually. What it means is that collectors are collectors foremost. There are some here who do indeed quote Hoffman dogma that is for the most part grossly misinformed and there are indeed astute listeners but also those who are collectors of numbers. Those values you quote seem to me to represent collectability rather than musical value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riverrat Posted June 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I would agree that the versions of BN remasterings that a person prefers is to some degree dependent on the system they use to play it back, room acoustics, etc. But based on the evidence I've seen, preference for RVGs is a minority opinion among those of us who have compared them to TOCJs. Seems pretty consistent across a wide range of playback systems. And dismissing preference for TOCJs as being based on their collectability is highly questionable. Might be true in some cases, but as a generalization? I don't think so. I wish I preferred RVGs- they are a bargain and I am a confirmed bottom feeder when it comes to CD buying, but I tried to like them and just don't in most cases. To be sure, there are some serious collectors on the SH forum, but they seem mostly focused on early Japan and West German CDs of mainstream music, which version of Led Zeppelin I or Dark Side of The Moon is best, idolizing SH remasters, and so on. Ridiculously anal about some of that stuff, IMHO. There is some interest in jazz there, but not all that much in my experience. I could be wrong, but I think most people who buy TOCJs buy them to listen to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son-of-a-Weizen Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Collectors bore me. Btw, I need OBIs for 'The Cat Walk' 'The Connection' and 'Adam's Apple' ....anyone got a spare? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmirBagachelles Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 attaboy Rolf. To be clear: obi's are NOT JUST FOR ASSHOLES, ok? let's help one another. I may have JRVG obis for Adam's Apple and The Connection, if I do you can have them. Won't be home til sunday though.... Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 robert h, I heae these series the way you do. I'm a big fan of RVG and JRVG editions, and don't seek out the other Japanese series any longer, find them rather uninvolving. More for those who want them! The biggest change for me has been to build a flexible system. . . especially my speakers, I can tailor the high frequency output quite quickly and easily, and there's a "treble dampening" system added to my amp which is quite effective and quite a sonic achievement really. Really enjoying the chance to tailor the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_forumlogo.png.a607ef20a6e0c299ab2aa6443aa1f32e.png)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.