*** Cecil Taylor ***

[king ubu]

Off topic: Ubu, I'd propose you get this one while supplies last.

Cool, thanks! I hope I can afford this as long as it is around! (I am seriously considering a buying stop... )

ubu

[king ubu]

wow, having looked at the contents, I really should consider getting this!

ubu

[mikeweil]

The best albums of the Cecil Taylor Unit with Lyons AND Rivers are the 'Nuits de la Fondation Maeght' from the 1969 concerts on the French Riviera that appeared on the Shandar label. 3 albums. These were the only official records by the group. Not sure they are currently available on CDs. Sam Rivers played with CT for a few months only.

These were issued in the US as a 3-LP box set "The Great Concert of Cecil Taylor", Prestige P-34003, in 1977. OOP, of course, and not yet on CD.

Edited December 15, 2003 by mikeweil

[Lazaro Vega]

Was reading Alyn Shipton's "New History of Jazz" on the subject of "Free Jazz" and he reminds us that Taylor's first influence from the 1950's was Horace Silver, "a player who in some respects paralleled Thelonious Monk, in that his technique was unorthodox, yet he poured his personality and his feelings into his playing. In a conversation with A.B. Spellman. Taylor compared Silver's total commitment to his music to that of the soul singer James Brown, as part of 'the genuine tradition of a people."

Shipton also notes that Val Wilmer's description of Taylor playing "88 tuned drums" and Taylor's idea, "We in black music think of the piano as a percussive instrument: we beat the keyboard, we get inside the instrument" is highly Afro-Centric, an important part of the decade's dialogue on black identity.

Which seems to me to be, ah, Right On. To say Taylor is more aligned with European classical music than jazz is an impossibility for me: without Gospel, Blues and Jazz there would be no Cecil Taylor.

To use another more familiar example: in his quest to change jazz forms, Dave Brubeck involved his music with many classical music methods, and I don't hear folks saying that he's nothing other than a jazz musician, "Two Part Contention" notwithstanding.

An interesting point in Shipton's few pages on Taylor vis a vis this thread: after his period as a bandleader and the mid-60's classic recordings, Taylor found a period of solo performance to be most sustainable in the 1970's, and though in the late 70's he would tour with a band from time to time, he "began to specialize in working in duo with percussionists, starting with Tony Williams on his album "Joy of Flying." Later percussion partners included Max Roach and the South African drummer Louis Moholo." (End Shipton).

So whatever early troubles he had with drummers, they eventually became equal partners in his musical interplay. The paths opened up by Sunny Murray and Andrew Cyrille are still well marked and unlike anything else in the jazz woods.

[king ubu]

Lazaro, that last paragraph of your post states very much the same Jost says (and remember he said that in a book published in 1972, on which he worked most probably in the late sixties, already). Murray and Cyrille were the right guys, and with them, it seems, everything in Taylor's music fell in place.

On the influences on Taylor, Jost points to Lennie Tristano and Dave Brubeck. He quotes from Williams' book "Four lives of Bebop" (or similar), some interview passages were Taylor himself speaks about Brubeck and Tristano. I cannot emulate all Jost writes here from memory. Then it seems Taylor heard Silver playing opposite Brubeck and perceived it as Brubeck imitating Silver. From then on he was interested more in the "black" side, and less in the attempts to produce an amalgamation of jazz and european music (which was why he early on was fascinated by both Brubeck and Tristano).

Interesting, then, is that Jost, after describing the ways and developpement of Taylor, in his close reading of "Unit Structures", mentions, how close parts of the exhibition of the thematic material (going from memory the first four minutes or so of the track) come to new music. But this then, would be from a wholly different angle - not the trial to do like fugues or something, wrapped in jazzy rhythms, but rather, having succeeded in developping his own musical structuralism, his own scheme how to do things, how to get rid of the theme-solos-theme structure, Taylor's music can indeed at times sound almost like "Neue Musik" (I don't know if the term "new music" as I used it before describes the same thing).

On a more personal basis, though, even with knowledge of the the points Jost discusses, much of Taylor's music, and often with Sunny Murray on drums, sounds like "just the usual high energy (post-Coltrane) sixties free jazz" (not to diss that, though!). I mean, you can often not figure out without repeated listenings/explorations, how complex that music is, and how (even if partly/mostly improvised on the spot) constructed it is. Yet somehow, the music often is extremely dense and never opens up or slows down or lets some air to breathe in between, and that's not only a challenge, in my opinion, but rather, sometimes, a pretty boring thing...

ubu

[king ubu]

The recently re-issued STUDENT STUDIES contains prime C.T. from the mid-60's, with Lyons, Silva and Cyrille. Essential listening, IMHO; one of the most welcome reissues of 2003.

I got this last week and found time for a (rather casual but not fully distracted) listen on sunday. Like it very much!

thanks for that recommendation!

ubu

[king ubu]

Back to the points of drummers with Cecil: in his early years (make them 1956 to 1961, from "Jazz Advance" to the Candid stuff, the tracks from "Into the Hot" being the link to the next phase beginning in '62 with "Nefertiti"), Taylor played/recorded with the following:

- Dennis Charles (on "Jazz Advance", "Looking Ahead", and most of the Candid sessions)

- Rudy Collins (on "Love For Sale")

- Billy Higgins (on some the large group and two trio tracks for Candid)

- Louis Hayes (on the album with Coltrane, "Hard Driving Jazz")

Who of these drummers do you think fit best with Taylor and why? As I stated already, in my opinion, Charles (who most often was Taylor's drummer) does not always fit in perfectly. I like the way he's swinging, but face to face with Cecil it just seems a little stiff from time to time. On "Jazz Advance", however, and maybe on "Looking Ahead", too, Charles is still relatively well-fitting into the music, Taylor being only on his way then to develop his unique rhythmic conception.

The Coltrane date is a whole other affair. An intriguing thing, yet not successful, I think. I cannot comment on Hayes (nor on Israels) as I would have to listen seriously to that again.

Rudy Collins, in my opinion, does a very good job on "Love For Sale" - I particularly like the three Cole Porter tunes done with just the trio. I would need a closer listen to this album as well to make more comments.

Now Billy Higgins: he seems a rather improbable partner for Taylor, but, to my surprise, he is great on the (freely improvised?) trio track "Cindy's Main Mood" (from "New York City R'n'B", Candid), and he's also better than Charles, in my opinion, on the "O.P." Oscar Pettiford tribute (the Higgins version is on the NYC R'n'B album, the Charles on some other CD, probably "Cell Walk For Celeste", Candid, too). I still have to listen to the larger group, however for my ears, the swing/time/general playing style of Higgins fits in quite well with Taylor. He's laying a much denser foundation, providing more sound in general than Charles, and I do like this.

Other opinions here?

Or how about some discussion on Taylor's later drummers? The masterful Sunny Murray, who changed a whole lot, and arrived in the right time to join in with Jimmy Lyons and some other new faces.

Andrew Cyrille is another master, judging from the few things I heard with him.

Then there were Ronald Shannon Jackson, Marc Edwards, later Tony Oxley, and some others (whose work with Taylor I do not know very well).

ubu

[AmirBagachelles]

I listened to Cecil w/ Moholo on FMP over the weekend, I got less than halfway thru but I loved it. Moholo is nicely assertive throughout to my ears, the piano though is not well-recorded.

[WD45]

No Cecil Taylor rec list is complete without For Olim, a solo date on Soul Note. He plays some brief pieces on here [relatively speaking] that are more easily digested for a newer listener.

[brownie]

Or how about some discussion on Taylor's later drummers? The masterful Sunny Murray, who changed a whole lot, and arrived in the right time to join in with Jimmy Lyons and some other new faces.

Andrew Cyrille is another master, judging from the few things I heard with him.

Then there were Ronald Shannon Jackson, Marc Edwards, later Tony Oxley, and some others (whose work with Taylor I do not know very well).

ubu

The choice is really between Sonny Murray and Andrew Cyrille. Those two were perfect matches for CT. Murray, the intuitive catalyst, Cyrille, the pulsating ponctuator.

I never heard Murray with CT live. Only on records which are intense get-together. But I've heard Sonny Murray live plenty of times. Love the Murray's explosions that propel the music to unexplored territories. Sonny Murray is a sadly neglected percussion giant.

Cyrille and CT. They were together for more than ten years. I was privileged to hear them rehearse for hours on when the Cecil Taylor Unit - with Jimmy Lyons and Alan Silva - came to Paris in 1966. Cyrille and CT really belonged together.

The musical empathy between them was amazing. They explored rhythmic variations endlessly and fed musical innovations to each other with glee. Cyrille was a permanent experience of percussion sophistication, matching any CT's inventions with instant punctuation celebrations.

Sonny Murray was a perfect match for an Albert Ayler, Andrew Cyrille was really Cecil Taylor's alter ego.

What I wouldn't give to attend a Cyrille/Taylor reunion! Or a Murray/Taylor reunion!

Edited December 23, 2003 by brownie

[king ubu]

I guess you are right (and there seems to be some sort of a general consensus about Murray and Cyrille being the perfect drummers for Taylor).

I was only trying to analyze what I hear when listening to Taylor's pre-Murray records.

Nefertiti then is where things really get together. The three tracks from the Gil Evans "Into The Hot" album, however, are very good too!

I am just starting to explore the works of Murray and Cyrille with Taylor, however.

A reunion with Taylor would sure be great! They could add Henry Grimes, for instance...

ubu

[Late]

Up for refreshed reading, and wondering what you all thought of these recordings:

[paul secor]

I'd just like to put in a word for Denis Charles. He wasn't as "free" (however one may choose to define that term) a drummer as Andrew Cyrille or Sunny Murray, but I feel that the sound of his drumming fit very well with the sound of Cecil's piano, and I wouldn't want to be without the Contemporary and Candid sides he played on.

[Lazaro Vega]

Lazaro, that last paragraph of your post states very much the same Jost says (and remember he said that in a book published in 1972, on which he worked most probably in the late sixties, already). Murray and Cyrille were the right guys, and with them, it seems, everything in Taylor's music fell in place.  ubu

That's interesting, as I haven't read Jost. The chronology of Taylor's music isn't a mere series of events, though, but a long, ongoing, evolving process in which he's finding suitable and like minded players to fully realize his musical universe.

And that universe is very elemental in my mind, a la fire, water, earth, sky and the proto-historical creation myths which sought to deal with them. The times I've heard him live, too, what comes to mind are the type of forces responsible for geological change, you know, giant natural forces that create metamorphic rock, as well as the turbulence of industry, giant levers raising and lowering with extreme force tempered with the human spirit's beauty and lyricism, or the universal soul of creativity, which, since Blake, anyway, has been dynamic (i.e. "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"), literally volcanic. In other words, when I hear Cecil Taylor it reaches me on the level of archetype. I don't know how else to explain it. Both times I heard him live, you may know, I was sober.

Was reading the CD cover to "Three Phasis" and was struck by the notation that it was a "through-composed" piece, that is completely written.

Well, there are large sections of compositional material, which the band wails on, develops, transmutes and transforms through solo and group improvisation in a push and pull which contains its own form of tension and release -- it isn't all of the same dynamic level, and the themes are easily heard in their percussive melodicism. There was a quote somewhere, I think in the notes to the other New World release, that said Taylor's music is difficult, but always accessible. I think that's true. The nearly hour long performance of "Three Phasis" moves between these various "structures," or composed sections, via cues from the piano or the horns (and yes, Shannon Jackson's chant-like drum cadences fall in well with Taylor's sense of rhythmic dance).

These composed sections, which have become clearer in his music as he's aged and slowed down the tempo so you can hear them, and the way the ensemble moves between them are what I believe to reveal his concept of "unit structures." A good example of that can be heard in the cut "Glossilalia" (sp) on the For Olim disc mentioned above.

I'd really like to hear what a musician has to say about that, though, as I don't think I've heard it laid out by a musician. Most folks are trying to deal with "is it tonal or atonal or polytonal" where the key to his music is more general as in "how does the music move from here to there" and how does rhythm melody work in it.

Which is probably why Sunny Murray was his ideal accompanist: Murray's main influence was Max Roach, a premier rhythm melodist in all of jazz. The trio with Lyons, Taylor and Murray recorded in Copenhagen is arguably his finest band music. It certainly is a high point as it moves between the early stage and the emerging formulation of unit structures.

The only musician I know who's dealt with Taylor's recording "Unit Structures" on the level of transcription is Steve Rusch, a pianist and composer who's an associate professor at the University of Michigan. I'd really like to hear what he has to say, in detail, about the primary methods of organization in the music of Cecil Taylor.

There just isn't enough written about him on that musical/intellectual level. Not that we're on our own. Has any of Taylor's time in academia yielded course notes from students?

Edited February 9, 2004 by Lazaro Vega

[king ubu]

Lazaro, I have only just now realized that my post above could be read as me implying you took your ideas from Jost - I was far from wanting to say that!

Why I'm actually posting here again is:

This site mentions the 10CD "Two Ts For A Lovely T" Codanza box being recorded from August 27 to September 1, 1990 - this would make perfect sense, five nights, two sets per night. Does anyone know if this is accurate? The box just says "Recorded in London in 1990".

And another question: the Berlin 88 stuff: I think there was some part not released on a single disc, but only in the box, right?

The single releases are: "Riobec", "In East Berlin", "Regalia", "The Hearth", "Alms/Tiergarten (Spree)", "Remembrance", "Pleistozaen Mit Wasser", "Spots, Circles, And Fantasy", "Legba Crossing", "Erzulie Maketh Scent", and "Leaf Palm Hand". Is this list complete and correct?

And what does the not separately released recording contain?

ubu

[brownie]

Ubu, 'Legba Crossing' was not sold separately. It was included in the FMP 11CD Cecil Taylor Berlin 1988 box.

CT did not play on 'Legba Crossing', he directed the mostly-German ensemble playing his music.

[Chuck Nessa]

And another question: the Berlin 88 stuff: I think there was some part not released on a single disc, but only in the box, right?

The single releases are: "Riobec", "In East Berlin", "Regalia", "The Hearth", "Alms/Tiergarten (Spree)", "Remembrance", "Pleistozaen Mit Wasser", "Spots, Circles, And Fantasy", "Legba Crossing", "Erzulie Maketh Scent", and "Leaf Palm Hand". Is this list complete and correct?

And what does the not separately released recording contain?

ubu

"In East Berlin" was not part of the box.

"Legba Crossing" was supposed to be exclusive to the box but some were sold separately.

[king ubu]

Thanks, Chuck & brownie!

Renewed interested here, as my radio programme about Cecil continues next sunday, and as I just found In East-Berlin used and dirt cheap in formidable condition.

So "Legba Crossing" is the one to hunt!

ubu

[Lazaro Vega]

Lazaro, I have only just now realized that my post above could be read as me implying you took your ideas from Jost - I was far from wanting to say that!

Why I'm actually posting here again is:

This site mentions the 10CD "Two Ts For A Lovely T" Codanza box being recorded from August 27 to September 1, 1990 - this would make perfect sense, five nights, two sets per night. Does anyone know if this is accurate? The box just says "Recorded in London in 1990".

Ubu, we're cool. I was hearing you.

And, yes, Two T's is exactly that: a week at work for the Feel Trio. William Parker is impressive in this setting -- he is an incredible fit.

[king ubu]

Lazaro, I have only just now realized that my post above could be read as me implying you took your ideas from Jost - I was far from wanting to say that!

Why I'm actually posting here again is:

This site mentions the 10CD "Two Ts For A Lovely T" Codanza box being recorded from August 27 to September 1, 1990 - this would make perfect sense, five nights, two sets per night. Does anyone know if this is accurate? The box just says "Recorded in London in 1990".

Ubu, we're cool. I was hearing you.

And, yes, Two T's is exactly that: a week at work for the Feel Trio. William Parker is impressive in this setting -- he is an incredible fit.

[blue lake]

Cecil Taylor, "Algonquin," with violinist Mat Maneri recorded in 1999 at the Library of Congress has just been issued by the classical Bridge Record label (www.bridgerecords.com).

Bill Shoemaker writes the liner notes. One paragraph:

"During the 1970's and 80's, Taylor arguably made greater strides in developing the compositional aspects of his music through his solo piano works, in part because of his preference for tonal centers such as A, B, E and F#, which are unwieldy for horn players. A seemingly unlikely kinship with Chopin began to manifest itself in romantic ballads tethered by bass lines played in octaves, which initially appeared as encores on such live recordings from the mid-'70s as "Silent Tongues." Conversely, Taylor retooled the so-called locked hands style, a time-worn jazz piano device most commonly associated with the likes of Milt Buckner and George Shearing, but also employed by Horace Silver, who Taylor reveres. Taylor’s extension of the locked hands style, particularly his use of mirrored fingerings and the mix of parallel and contrary motion between hands on his pivotal solo recordings of the 1980's -- "Garden" and "For Olim" -- served two important purposes: it gave Taylor’s music a more deliberate and occasionally relaxed feel; and it explicated his fascination with intervals of a minor third and smaller."

[brownie]

Thanks, Blue Lake, for bringing that 'Algonquin' release to the attention of Cecil Taylor fans here.

Will be looking for this album.

[Lazaro Vega]

You're welcome Brownie. I just opened it today, and played the last movement on the radio. There's also a recent one on Justin Time of Cecil with the Italian Instabile Orchestra that's very different. Not really like the Berlin big band recording.

[king ubu]

You're welcome Brownie. I just opened it today, and played the last movement on the radio. There's also a recent one on Justin Time of Cecil with the Italian Instabile Orchestra that's very different. Not really like the Berlin big band recording.

That one was originally released on Enja:

I think it's pretty good. Have to listen to it again, though.

ubu

[EKE BBB]

A few pics of Cecil Taylor and Tony Oxley - Luchtbal, Antwerpen