Herbie Hancock comping in "outside" compositions

[Big Al]

Much as I love Hancock's playing, as a writer, soloist, and comp-er, on the few tracks I've heard where he plays in a free-form setting, his chords and voicings all seem to sound the same. I'm thinking of some tracks from Some Other Stuff, Byrd's Free Form, Shorter's All-Seeing Eye, and Sam Rivers Contours, as well as "The Egg" and "Eye of the Hurricane."

Maybe there's something you guys are hearing that I'm not, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

(this thread inspired by the All Seeing Eye Album of the Week thread!)

[CJ Shearn]

since I'm a non muscian. are you talking about his frequent use of fourths? (the kind of floaty chords McCoy Tyner uses) those I can recognize..... Some musicians I know say he comes up with some pretty twisted shit harmonically.

[Rooster_Ties]

I'd have to give a listen to specifically react to what your talking about.

But, from my memory, I do agree that there is some degree of similarity (or, perhaps, "sameness") to Herbie's comping on his more unstructured stuff from the mid 60's (including his sideman dates). And, I seem to remember the same kind of "sound" on some of Herbie's comping on a bunch of live 1967 recordings of Miles' 2nd quintet -- some of which had a similar kind of unstructureness to it at times (although, (IMHO) in a more refined way (meaning "less free") than the Miles "Plugged Nickel" material from late 1965).

(Too wordy, damn it. Try again...)

I guess what my brain remembers my ears hearing is Herbie banging an ambiguous chord (one that doesn't suggest a root, or key-center), in a rhythmic sort of way -- almost using the piano more as a percussion instrument, rather than implying static harmony, or (to an even lesser extent) trying to suggest any sort of harmonic movement.

(FYI, I'm also not a jazz musician, so all that above is totally flying by the seat of my pants. Somebody please tell me if anything I just said makes any sense!! )

In short, Big Al, I think I do know what you're talking about, although (if I'm remembering right, and thinking of the same stuff you're specifically talking about), I really like this kind of "functionless" comping, actually. I've heard it in other contexts, from other pianists, and if done tastefully - (IMHO) I think it builds tension for the listener, although in a much less obvious way than more "audience-friendly" tension-building effects (like you find in more traditional 'hard-bop', for instance.)

Great topic, thanks for bringing it up!!

[mikeweil]

I guess what my brain remembers my ears hearing is Herbie banging an ambiguous chord (one that doesn't suggest a root, or key-center), in a rhythmic sort of way -- almost using the piano more as a percussion instrument, rather than implying static harmony, or (to an even lesser extent) trying to suggest any sort of harmonic movement.

Great topic, thanks for bringing it up!!

That's the way I see it, too (both parts I quoted .

I learned a lot from Herbie as far as rhythmic awareness is concerned; being a percussionist the intricacies of his harmonic style were less important to me. I often found that Afro-American musicians sometimes use a chord for its sound in the first place, and use it percussively, like a drum with its rich multicentered (tonally speaking) sound. I experience a similar thing with a Kurdish musician I play with for three years now, he harmonizes for sound's sake, not according to functionally appropriate harmonic rules.

Listening to Herbie's solos on "Ostinato" on the "Mwandishi" album always makes me think of a battery of African xylophones.

I have to add that this preoccupation with harmony is a typically Western thing; research about scales and chords in Non-Western music started roughly a little more than 100 years ago, whereas the serious study of African rhythm started in the 1950's. From an African point of view, sound and rhythm is always more important than harmony, a chord being more or less a sideproduct of the search for a rich sound. Remember, jazz is black music, at the core, and you can get niggers out of Africa, but you cannot get Africa out of niggahs ..

Edited April 1, 2003 by mikeweil

[Joe G]

I guess what my brain remembers my ears hearing is Herbie banging an ambiguous chord (one that doesn't suggest a root, or key-center), in a rhythmic sort of way -- almost using the piano more as a percussion instrument, rather than implying static harmony, or (to an even lesser extent) trying to suggest any sort of harmonic movement.

(FYI, I'm also not a jazz musician, so all that above is totally flying by the seat of my pants. Somebody please tell me if anything I just said makes any sense!! )

Could have fooled me!

[tonym]

fro what i can hear from memory, herbie regularly used lots of suspended chords; ie. ones that suggest neither resolve to a minor or a major but give an ambiguious feel. this may have been ideal for settings when the harmony was a bit 'out'. i'm not a pianist so forgive me if this sounds rubbish.

[mikeweil]

Geoffrey Keezer once said Herbie had told him he sometimes just sits in front of the keyboard and hits some chord in random fashion, curious about the way it sounds. I don't know if he ever does that in public, but .... B)

The interview can be found on the Geoff Keezer pages at GMN.

Edited April 3, 2003 by mikeweil

[Joe G]

Kenny Werner also teaches the playing of random chords as part of his Effortless Mastery exercises. I highly recommend that book.

[Soul Stream]

i've seen that book many times before Joe G., and always wondered about it. it looks like some sort of self-help, awareness, personal growth exercise sort of things. kind of turned off in a way, however is it worth checking out? what is it about?

[Joe G]

Well, it is all of those things, and I'm not sure why that would turn you off sight unseen. Basically, each chapter contains Kenny's thoughts about the different ways in which we inhibit our own potential as musicians, and exercises to help overcome these obstacles. More in the realm of psychology than in the external musical issues. I found it to be very refreshing and well-written (at times quite funny), also very practical. In my opinion, it should be required reading for all music students, along with these two titles:

The Listening Book, and, A Musical Life, both by W.A. Mathieu.

I guess I'm more the philosophical type, and enjoy mulling over the deeper meanings of what we do. Some people don't care about that, but that's okay. But if you are even just a little curious, I'd say check it out.

"Let go of your hang-ups, Beavis." -Butthead

Edited April 3, 2003 by Joe G

[Big Al]

The response from you all has put a lot of this into perspective!

I particularly like the comment about Hancock using the piano as more of a percussive instrument. I'm gonna have to listen to some of these songs again with that in mind.

My original thought was that what may sound like a random hit on the keyboard, I seem to have heard on other recordings. (Or maybe it just seems that way because I've only heard a couple of tracks in that vein.) Sorta like Freddie Hubbard's trill (especially evident on his CTI recordings).

So, thanks for responding, folks!