"Point of Departure" trivia question...

[Rooster_Ties]

Perhaps this is a widely known fact, but I had forgotten all about it until I encountered this interesting piece of trivia recently...

Which musician who was on Andrew Hill's "Point of Departure", wasn't originally supposed to be on the date??

And what musician, who was originally supposed to be on "PoD", couldn't make the date - resulting in the substitution???

Let the speculation begin...

Edited November 9, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Late]

I think the answers are:

1. Joe Henderson

and

2. Charles Lloyd

[robviti]

I'd be interested in learning the source of this trivia "fact." I say this because in the liner notes to POD, Nat Hentoff quotes Hill as saying "I selected the men because of the particular strengths each has. I also selected them because..." Hill goes on to describe the qualities of each musician appearing on this date in terms of the music that was played. These remarks, if true, would seem to suggest that no last-minute substitution occurred. But in the spirit of being a "team player," I'll guess that Kenny Dorham is the odd man out. Perhaps Freddie Hubbard was the supposed "first choice?"

[Rooster_Ties]

I'd be interested in learning the source of this trivia "fact."

Found it in an interview with Hill, so I got this right from the horse's mouth. I'll provide the answer before the end of the day, today.

[doubleM]

Hmmm...I would have to guess K.D., too. But who was he subbing for (?), I couldn't tell ya'. Freddie might have had a little more "out" dates under his belt, but he wasn't exactly "Go to" in those situations. I'm stumped.

[robviti]

I'm sorry. I meant for you to reveal your source after the quiz was over. Now anyone can google the interview for the answer (I just did).

P.S. After learning who was "second choice," I'm very glad the "original" couldn't make it (I'm not a big fan).

Edited November 9, 2003 by jazzshrink

[Guy Berger]

I'm sorry. I meant for you to reveal your source after the quiz was over. Now anyone can google the interview for the answer (I just did).

P.S. After learning who was "second choice," I'm very glad the "original" couldn't make it (I'm not a big fan).

With all due respect to the "original", who I enjoy, I'm also glad about the "2nd choice".

Guy

[JSngry]

When did Charles Lloys sign with Columbia?

[wesbed]

I found and read the Andrew Hill interview. I'm very glad 'the player' who made the recording date did so. I wouldn't enjoy Point of Departure near as much if 'he' wasn't on it. 'He' is the one I always wait to hear when I listen to PoD. He shines brightly within the Andrew Hill environment of sound.

[Morganized]

I agree with Jazzshrink and DoubleM. I think I may have heard this once before.Can't really remember. It was a surprise. Someone you would not expect necessarily. I think it was

1. Kenny Dorham

and

2. Lee Morgan

[mikeweil]

Now who was it?

[wesbed]

The answer can be found here.

[Soul Stream]

Personally, I think the lineup that is on the date was destined to be there. Scheduling or no, that's the album. I can't imagine a different player in any of the roles.

[Morganized]

Thanks Wesbed, I tried to google it but could not come up with the right interview. Whew. Wonder where I came up with that one.

Oh well, at least you know I play fair

[brownie]

I'm glad Charles Lloyd could not make the date.

Joe Henderson always managed to produce provocative and innovative solos. Henderson was a sincere musician. And he was just that on Point of Departure.

Always thought that most of Lloyd's output remained superficial.

All potatoes, no meat. That's Lloyd's music to me.

[Guest ariceffron]

that is not the right way of looking at it- the way he plays is like a lot of etheral compared to joe henderson but that doesnt mean one is more superficial than the other- they just developed diverging styles

[shawn·m]

That’s one of the criticisms I’ve never understood about Miles Blackhawk recordings. Some don’t care for Hank’s playing, fair enough, but why wish for Coltrane when there’s a fair amount of Miles/Coltrane material available? It’s not as if Hank somehow displaced Trane for the few recordings he did with Davis.

[shawn·m]

Nat Hentoff quotes Hill as saying "I selected the men because of the particular strengths each has. I also selected them because..." Hill goes on to describe the qualities of each musician appearing on this date in terms of the music that was played. These remarks, if true, would seem to suggest that no last-minute substitution occurred.

Although it might have been a last-minute substitution, it’s not really a contradiction. Hill and Henderson practiced/played together frequently before Departure, and if I remember correctly, even before Black Fire).

[JSngry]

When did Charles Lloys sign with Columbia?

This might be relevant, becasue maybe Lloyd was lined up for the date, signed the deal w/Columbia, and decided not to be a sideman anymore (or else it was decided for him).

I confess, I have a hard time "hearing" Lloyd on POD, but his light tone and personal pitch and inflections might have added a unique flavor not at odds with Hill's music.

[mikeweil]

Well said, Jim: To be a sideman or not to be a sideman, that is the question - at least for some people at some point in their lives. Hill certainly knew why he wanted Lloyd, he could have asked for Henderson right away.

Maybe both Dorham and Alfred Lion opted for Henderson when getting Lloyd would be complicated - the sentence "XXX appears courtesy of YYY Records" is not often found on Blue Note covers.

[Trio]

Andrew Hill,himself told me that he wanted Charles Lloyd to play on POD,simply because he liked the way Lloyd was playing at the time.BTW,I plan to see Andrew later this week and I will try to get more details as to why Lloyd could not make the date.

Andrew Hill and Jason Moran will be performing duo on Dec 8,at Merkin concert hall in NYC...

[danasgoodstuff]

Not to totally hijack the thread, but I passed on a used copy of a C. Lloyd Columbia with T. Williams, R. Carter and Gabor Sazbo at a record show the other day, did I goof? (It was cheap)