Great advice from Jimmy Raney

[Cliff Englewood]

I'd love to hear the Live at Birdland 1950 w/Getz. Don't have the Vol. 2 myself but the clips on Amazon sounded good.

[Jim R]

...his ES-150 should be in the Smithsonian or something, that axe must have some serious mojo, if it's still in one piece that is.

I'm sure it would need new frets at the very least!!!

There was a vol. 2?

I think that was discussed in the earlier Raney thread. (If I recall correctly, brownie added some interesting historical details about players and locations).

This thread is great too, but there's an awful lot of info in the other one which hopefully won't fade away.

[fasstrack]

I'd love to hear the Live at Birdland 1950 w/Getz. Don't have the Vol. 2 myself but the clips on Amazon sounded good.

Killin'. The real, raw shit w/Stan, Horace, Jimmy, Tiny Kahn, (I think Al Haig) on some things. They were really on. Jimmy's sound is so raw it sounds like his amp was picking up alpha waves! ROY. G. BIV come in.... Stan is fierce, like I said. He's somehow more extroverted than on Storyville, though that stuff is great too. Edited April 10, 2009 by fasstrack

[AllenLowe]

Evans is more complicated than that - Cliff - have you heard the OJC? Simply the most personal adaptation of Tristano of any pianist I have heard - and listen to Evans' playing from the late '50s, before he put together the trio - some of the most intelligent piano I have ever heard - also listen to him on the live stuff with Tony Scott from '59 - another musician altogether (though I heard him, in 1979, play like the "old" Evans - one had to see him away from his whole sense of being an "artiste", I think -)

Edited April 11, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Denis]

I'd love to hear the Live at Birdland 1950 w/Getz. Don't have the Vol. 2 myself but the clips on Amazon sounded good.

Killin'. The real, raw shit w/Stan, Horace, Jimmy, Tiny Kahn, (I think Al Haig) on some things. They were really on. Jimmy's sound is so raw it sounds like his amp was picking up alpha waves! ROY. G. BIV come in.... Stan is fierce, like I said. He's somehow more extroverted than on Storyville, though that stuff is great too.

Unless I am mistaken it would be Live at Birdland in 1952 w/Getz.

Starting from April until August 1952 Stan's band played Birdland quite often and luckily we have this music.

Of course Stan Getz at Storyville is much more well known. But maybe because this is a bootleg it is less available.

I searched the Stan Getz discography and Jimmy did not play with Stan at Birdland in 1950.

I just love Stan's band at Birdland. Jimmy of course is there. Either Duke Jordan or Horace Silver and even Charlie Mingus in August 1952.

Absolutely a must.

Denis

[fasstrack]

I'd love to hear the Live at Birdland 1950 w/Getz. Don't have the Vol. 2 myself but the clips on Amazon sounded good.

Killin'. The real, raw shit w/Stan, Horace, Jimmy, Tiny Kahn, (I think Al Haig) on some things. They were really on. Jimmy's sound is so raw it sounds like his amp was picking up alpha waves! ROY. G. BIV come in.... Stan is fierce, like I said. He's somehow more extroverted than on Storyville, though that stuff is great too.

Unless I am mistaken it would be Live at Birdland in 1952 w/Getz.

Starting from April until August 1952 Stan's band played Birdland quite often and luckily we have this music.

Of course Stan Getz at Storyville is much more well known. But maybe because this is a bootleg it is less available.

I searched the Stan Getz discography and Jimmy did not play with Stan at Birdland in 1950.

I just love Stan's band at Birdland. Jimmy of course is there. Either Duke Jordan or Horace Silver and even Charlie Mingus in August 1952.

Absolutely a must.

Denis

'52. I, er, Stan corrected.......

I played it so much it grew hair. Finally shit-canned it b/c it practically would smack my hand saying 'leave me alone. I got nuffin' left. Nuffin', I tell ya....'

[fasstrack]

This thread is great too, but there's an awful lot of info in the other one which hopefully won't fade away.

What do we call that, 'thread nostalgia'? Sounds like a longing for darning needles and the joys of crochet . (I always reach for the 'crazy' smiley b/c I don't have to open the emoticonc box and allow my slow-as-shit given-to-me-as-charity computer to freeze).

This message has been brought to you by your friendly insane guitar player. Now back to our regularly scheduled Jimmy Raney American Masters special.

But first: Yeah, thread(s)---and nostalgia---ain't what they used to be. And I have to get a life. Thank the Lord I go back to work today.....

[Cliff Englewood]

Unless I am mistaken it would be Live at Birdland in 1952 w/Getz.

Starting from April until August 1952 Stan's band played Birdland quite often and luckily we have this music.

Of course Stan Getz at Storyville is much more well known. But maybe because this is a bootleg it is less available.

I searched the Stan Getz discography and Jimmy did not play with Stan at Birdland in 1950.

I just love Stan's band at Birdland. Jimmy of course is there. Either Duke Jordan or Horace Silver and even Charlie Mingus in August 1952.

Absolutely a must.

Denis

Nice one, thanks, do you have discog. or even a link to a discog. for this one by any chance??? Even a track listing???

[Denis]

Unless I am mistaken it would be Live at Birdland in 1952 w/Getz.

Starting from April until August 1952 Stan's band played Birdland quite often and luckily we have this music.

Of course Stan Getz at Storyville is much more well known. But maybe because this is a bootleg it is less available.

I searched the Stan Getz discography and Jimmy did not play with Stan at Birdland in 1950.

I just love Stan's band at Birdland. Jimmy of course is there. Either Duke Jordan or Horace Silver and even Charlie Mingus in August 1952.

Absolutely a must.

Denis

Nice one, thanks, do you have discog. or even a link to a discog. for this one by any chance??? Even a track listing???

Cliff I use the following discography for Stan

http://digilander.libero.it/nrascio/index.html

I find it quite complete and accurate. Of course I haven't seen many updates lately.

Good work.

Now the Birdland 1952 sessions have been issued on many bootleg labels.

If you don't have it, your best bet is our Andorran friends at

http://www.freshsoundrecords.com/

Denis

[Cliff Englewood]

Cliff I use the following discography for Stan

http://digilander.libero.it/nrascio/index.html

I find it quite complete and accurate. Of course I haven't seen many updates lately.

Good work.

Now the Birdland 1952 sessions have been issued on many bootleg labels.

If you don't have it, your best bet is our Andorran friends at

http://www.freshsoundrecords.com/

Denis

Cheers Denis.

[Raneyjr]

Very interesting to hear that your father was not a fan of Tristano's playing yet he was a fan of Bill Evans, many people, including myself find Evans a very cold player.

Wow, if you or some others hear Evans as a cold player, I'm not sure what to say The guy plays ballads in such a way, with such purity that it's difficult to imagine a more moving jazz listening experience. Haunted Heart, Danny Boy, Blue in Green. Take your pick.

But in terms of Lennie's influence, it's very apparent in his period from 1956 and some other recordings which require a harder edge (like George Russell stuff) but he was already transitioning out of this by 1958. The conception being the fast "single right hand line" approach influenced in part by by Lennie's famous solos such as "Lineup". I think that was on everyone's turntable for a while. Other guys doing similar things were Horace Silver and Eddie Costa. In terms of Lennie's style not being my father's bag or cold etc. You know some critic's considered my father's style a little cold. As ridiculous as that sounds. I think the term "cold" probably requires very specific language. Some people term restraint as "cold" and prefer "exuberance" which could be termed warm (Cannonball would be an example of that). For me I subscribe to my father's approach to artistry and those whom he admired, which is certain amount of latent energy. That requires a great deal of maturity as an artist. To walk the tightrope between withholding or calculating too much and overplaying or worse, delivering the obvious. His closest relationship with that school is with Lee. He knew him, respected him, played with him, was influenced in some ways by him and had some difficulties with him.

P.S. from a purely nerd point of view, what ever happened to your fathers old guitars, his ES-150 should be in the Smithsonian or something, that axe must have some serious mojo, if it's still in one piece that is.

Nite

I'm not sure how many Gibson models he had. If think one was stolen and one was purchased legitimately by a collector. That model is featured here on my forum Doug is more on top of these things honestly because he's a little older. I am currently in possesion of his Fender and Doug his Hoffner.

[fasstrack]

Very interesting to hear that your father was not a fan of Tristano's playing yet he was a fan of Bill Evans, many people, including myself find Evans a very cold player.

Wow, if you or some others hear Evans as a cold player, I'm not sure what to say The guy plays ballads in such a way, with such purity that it's difficult to imagine a more moving jazz listening experience. Haunted Heart, Danny Boy, Blue in Green. Take your pick.

But in terms of Lennie's influence, it's very apparent in his period from 1956 and some other recordings which require a harder edge (like George Russell stuff) but he was already transitioning out of this by 1958. The conception being the fast "single right hand line" approach influenced in part by by Lennie's famous solos such as "Lineup". I think that was on everyone's turntable for a while. Other guys doing similar things were Horace Silver and Eddie Costa. In terms of Lennie's style not being my father's bag or cold etc. You know some critic's considered my father's style a little cold. As ridiculous as that sounds. I think the term "cold" probably requires very specific language. Some people term restraint as "cold" and prefer "exuberance" which could be termed warm (Cannonball would be an example of that). For me I subscribe to my father's approach to artistry and those whom he admired, which is certain amount of latent energy. That requires a great deal of maturity as an artist. To walk the tightrope between withholding or calculating too much and overplaying or worse, delivering the obvious. His closest relationship with that school is with Lee. He knew him, respected him, played with him, was influenced in some ways by him and had some difficulties with him.

P.S. from a purely nerd point of view, what ever happened to your fathers old guitars, his ES-150 should be in the Smithsonian or something, that axe must have some serious mojo, if it's still in one piece that is.

Nite

I'm not sure how many Gibson models he had. If think one was stolen and one was purchased legitimately by a collector. That model is featured here on my forum Doug is more on top of these things honestly because he's a little older. I am currently in possesion of his Fender and Doug his Hoffner.

Hey Jon: I tried posting what I hoped was a thoughtful response re: this 'cold' business, but, alas, and piss, shit, and frickin' corruption, I lost my connection. I hate when that happens .

So here's the highlights: Re Bill's influences: I think you can hear Lennie, among others in New Jazz Conceptions. I certainly hear it in the projects with George Russell---notably Concerto for Billy the Kid and Jazz in the Space Age. I think by the time of his tenure with Miles he pretty much sounded like the Bill Evans we all recognize. Re: Bill and Cannonball and their respective feels, they worked beautifully together, Bill bringing out Cannon's lyricism on the great album Know What I mean, and Cannon bringing a harder side of Bill out in Portrait of Julian Adderley (both on Riverside, I believe).

Now to this thorny 'coldness' conundrum: I think a lot of players with lighter touches, i.e. the ones with physical restraint (let's say Bill, Jim Hall, Ahmad Jamal, Hank Jones for example's sake, and I guess at the other end of the spectrum would be McCoy Tyner) are wrongly branded as holding back emotion b/c they don't 'bang'. Well, music ain't banging, and that's some bullshit and a bad rap. Similarly, there are subtle ways to express feeling, and sensitivity is the hallmark of superior playing and artistry. Not the whole thing, but it's important, at least to me. I think writers---of the 'guilty white liberal' ilk especially, in othrt words, most jazz journalists---are prone to get into this branding of mostly white players and they can be destructive by misleading and lumping a lot of great players, white and black, in dumb-ass categories. By comparison, the worst a good player, even one who is cold, can do is bore or fail to excite.

I played next to your dad, jamming at those aforementioned lessons at Attilla's---as close as a few feet away---and heard the man breathe, physically breathe, between phrases. If I wasn't hearing love, warmth, and passion I quit. Back to aluminum siding sales, know what I mean? He's called 'the epitome of cool' a lot too, and I wish a lot of people would get lives. And speaking of the Tristano world, I've heard Warne Marsh put down as cold also and I played with him and know that to be BS. Theres a very fine bio of Warne out BTW called An Unsung Cat, and in it a guy who knew both Warne and Lennie is quoted as saying that between the two Lennie had 'a great mind, but Warne had the talent'. Maybe, speculatively here, by that he meant more ability to communicate with his talents. Anyway, I bet Lennie didn't think he (Lennie) was cold. Neither do his staunch defenders. I personally do, also off-putting, though brilliant, and would rather hear Warne or Lee, especially earlier on. Bill I have fallen in and out of love with, depending on where I am at a given time. I think a lot of this stuff is in the ear of the beholder, and how connected the player and the listener are to each other at various times.

But sensitivity and restraint are as desirable as they are rare, and have zero to do with 'warmth', but everything to do with tools to communicate, to transfer whatever emotion is there to begin with. That I believe. Emotion can be found in the subtlest of approaches. We just need to 'listen louder'.

Edited April 13, 2009 by fasstrack

[Cliff Englewood]

Nite

I'm not sure how many Gibson models he had. If think one was stolen and one was purchased legitimately by a collector. That model is featured here on my forum Doug is more on top of these things honestly because he's a little older. I am currently in possesion of his Fender and Doug his Hoffner.

Thanks for that and the link to your site.

Regarding Evans, I don't know why I don't enjoy his playing, I only really like him as a sideman. I feel it's just kind of "faux-emotional playing" for lack of a better phrase, almost like he has kittens and puppies on his piano as he's playing. :lol:

I know that's a bit harsh and I know I would be in the minority with this opinion, but as a few other people have said before, "Everybody Digs Bill Evans", well except me, or maybe it should be "Everybody Digs Bill Evans???" :lol:

It's all in the ear of the behearer.

[Raneyjr]

Regarding Evans, I don't know why I don't enjoy his playing, I only really like him as a sideman. I feel it's just kind of "faux-emotional playing" for lack of a better phrase, almost like he has kittens and puppies on his piano as he's playing. :lol:

I know that's a bit harsh and I know I would be in the minority with this opinion, but as a few other people have said before, "Everybody Digs Bill Evans", well except me, or maybe it should be "Everybody Digs Bill Evans???" :lol:

It's all in the ear of the behearer.

I like kittens and puppies. Perhaps that's the difference. If Miles could say that Bill plays the piano like it should be should be played and on Bill's death, said "I'll miss Bill. I won't get to hear him play Alfie, anymore" (or something like that) that's enough confirmation for me that there is something beyond the superficial going on.

I understand that some people like the more aggressive Bill as evidenced by his sideman work. In all candor, I actually like the period of his playing from 58 to early 59 and wish he hadn't abandoned much of the personal bebop approach he was developing at that point. For example his work on Modern Art and East Coasting are incredible in my view.

Anyway this thread re: Bill not my cup of tea morphed from Lenny not my cup of tea could become an equine in the gutter and probably deserves it's own post rather than on Dad's.

[7/4]

Anyway this thread re: Bill not my cup of tea morphed from Lenny not my cup of tea could become an equine in the gutter and probably deserves it's own post rather than on Dad's.

Hmm...yeah, but there's a lot of thread drift around here.

[Raneyjr]

Not the whole thing, but it's important, at least to me. I think writers---of the 'guilty white liberal' ilk especially, in othrt words, most jazz journalists---are prone to get into this branding of mostly white players and they can be destructive by misleading and lumping a lot of great players, white and black, in dumb-ass categories. By comparison, the worst a good player, even one who is cold, can do is bore or fail to excite.

Yeah listening to critics in any of the arts is probably dumb. Often they are frustrated musicians or artists. Other times just ignorant but have a lot of superficial knowledge. You listen to what other respected artists have to say. Sometimes lay people that are just good listeners are the best to listen to.

I played next to your dad, jamming at those aforementioned lessons at Attilla's---as close as a few feet away---and heard the man breathe, physically breathe, between phrases.

Right. he always said he wanted to sound like he's blowing (like a saxophone). Doug does it to. Check out the video of Doug. You see it in his cheeks:

There’s a very fine bio of Warne out BTW called An Unsung Cat, and in it a guy who knew both Warne and Lennie is quoted as saying that between the two Lennie had 'a great mind, but Warne had the talent'. Maybe, speculatively here, by that he meant more ability to communicate with his talents. Anyway, I bet Lennie didn't think he (Lennie) was cold. Neither do his staunch defenders. I personally do, also off-putting, though brilliant, and would rather hear Warne or Lee, especially earlier on. Bill I have fallen in and out of love with, depending on where I am at a given time. I think a lot of this stuff is in the ear of the beholder, and how connected the player and the listener are to each other at various times.

I'm pretty sure dad liked Warne's playing. I have an audio of some of the live concert from the 80s with Dad, Warne and Lou Levy

But sensitivity and restraint are as desirable as they are rare, and have zero to do with 'warmth', but everything to do with tools to communicate, to transfer whatever emotion is there to begin with. That I believe. Emotion can be found in the subtlest of approaches. We just need to 'listen louder'.

I understand what you're saying. When I say restraint I mean in the sense of players who don't just jump on every idea that pops into their head. Players who use space, show thought and them come in with an even more subtle idea. I think listeners often miss the more subtle guys. There is something to be said for players that give it to you with the kitchen sink. But it's not the only way to play. In ref to listen louder. I think many players often play louder out of insecurity. Try to compensate for content with volume.

[Chuck Nessa]

I'm pretty sure dad liked Warne's playing. I have an audio of some of the live concert from the 80s with Dad, Warne and Lou Levy

I put that group together for the Chicago Jazz Festival. I have a tape of the gig.

[Joe G]

I'm pretty sure dad liked Warne's playing. I have an audio of some of the live concert from the 80s with Dad, Warne and Lou Levy

I put that group together for the Chicago Jazz Festival. I have a tape of the gig.

And you said the results were dismaying. Was it an "off" day for someone, or was it just not working no matter what?

[Chuck Nessa]

There seemed to be some tension between Raney and the Lou/Warne team. I don't know what is was and hesitate to voice speculations.

[fasstrack]

I'm pretty sure dad liked Warne's playing. I have an audio of some of the live concert from the 80s with Dad, Warne and Lou Levy

I put that group together for the Chicago Jazz Festival. I have a tape of the gig.

You have the tape? I'm gonna start being real nice to you from now on, Chuck .

[fasstrack]

Not the whole thing, but it's important, at least to me. I think writers---of the 'guilty white liberal' ilk especially, in othrt words, most jazz journalists---are prone to get into this branding of mostly white players and they can be destructive by misleading and lumping a lot of great players, white and black, in dumb-ass categories. By comparison, the worst a good player, even one who is cold, can do is bore or fail to excite.

Yeah listening to critics in any of the arts is probably dumb. Often they are frustrated musicians or artists. Other times just ignorant but have a lot of superficial knowledge. You listen to what other respected artists have to say. Sometimes lay people that are just good listeners are the best to listen to.

I played next to your dad, jamming at those aforementioned lessons at Attilla's---as close as a few feet away---and heard the man breathe, physically breathe, between phrases.

Right. he always said he wanted to sound like he's blowing (like a saxophone). Doug does it to. Check out the video of Doug. You see it in his cheeks:

There’s a very fine bio of Warne out BTW called An Unsung Cat, and in it a guy who knew both Warne and Lennie is quoted as saying that between the two Lennie had 'a great mind, but Warne had the talent'. Maybe, speculatively here, by that he meant more ability to communicate with his talents. Anyway, I bet Lennie didn't think he (Lennie) was cold. Neither do his staunch defenders. I personally do, also off-putting, though brilliant, and would rather hear Warne or Lee, especially earlier on. Bill I have fallen in and out of love with, depending on where I am at a given time. I think a lot of this stuff is in the ear of the beholder, and how connected the player and the listener are to each other at various times.

I'm pretty sure dad liked Warne's playing. I have an audio of some of the live concert from the 80s with Dad, Warne and Lou Levy

But sensitivity and restraint are as desirable as they are rare, and have zero to do with 'warmth', but everything to do with tools to communicate, to transfer whatever emotion is there to begin with. That I believe. Emotion can be found in the subtlest of approaches. We just need to 'listen louder'.

I understand what you're saying. When I say restraint I mean in the sense of players who don't just jump on every idea that pops into their head. Players who use space, show thought and them come in with an even more subtle idea. I think listeners often miss the more subtle guys. There is something to be said for players that give it to you with the kitchen sink. But it's not the only way to play. In ref to listen louder. I think many players often play louder out of insecurity. Try to compensate for content with volume.

Right: there's room for everyone at the table. But people are entitled to taste. I think peoples' taste and their core personalities are formed early in life and I don't see the point of always changing---since for most of us non genius knuckleheads one lifetime isn't even enough to get one style right.

It's funny about writers: The guy I had it in for the most, Stanley Crouch, turned out to be a great guy once I met him, and the people I know who like him all say there's no more loyal friend. No, please G-d, don't turn this into a Stanley thread. I like the MF, OK? Get over it (I say that b/c he and Wynton catch a lotta hell here----and, contrary to belief in some quarters, they are not the same person). I don't think that many people read the critics anyway, do they? I mean people, not musicians. Though I think musicians might be people. I know 'cause I saw one once and he had opposable thumbs

[fasstrack]

BTW: regarding simulating the air column of a horn, I do it three. It's no secret that we guitarists didn't create shit in terms of vocab (except for Christian and Django). We get it from the horn players.

[Raneyjr]

See you guys later.

Jon

Thanks for stopping in Jon. I always find your posts interesting, no matter what forum they're on.

Which other one are you on? All about Jazz or the usenet board?

[7/4]

See you guys later.

Jon

Thanks for stopping in Jon. I always find your posts interesting, no matter what forum they're on.

Which other one are you on? All about Jazz or the usenet board?

Both. There I mostly read. I'm also 7/4 at AAJ.