Great advice from Jimmy Raney

[fasstrack]

Thank you for this thread. Just a marvellous musician. Truly a master.

Anybody knows if any recorded music is left from that meeting with Stan, Al and Roy in the 80's ?

Denis, there's a video on youtube of the Woody Herman Herd with all those guys, Stan, Zoot, Al Cohn---if I remember right they all get a solo on Northwest Passage. There's a guitarist shown briefly and not featured. He looked like Jimmy but I wasn't sure. He had a crewcut, which threw me.

[7/4]

Anyway, I'm sorry I brought it up now, though it's a matter of semi-public record. We should stress the good things and he was the artist he was and set a very high standard to aspire to.

It's OK, I did a lot of R&D with the drinking for years before stopping in '07. It probably would have killed me.

Anyway...my automatic reaction when I first heard Raney was a combination of Bach 'n' Bird. I have a few albums on vinyl I haven't heard in years.

[fasstrack]

Anyway, I'm sorry I brought it up now, though it's a matter of semi-public record. We should stress the good things and he was the artist he was and set a very high standard to aspire to.

It's OK, I did a lot of R&D with the drinking for years before stopping in '07. It probably would have killed me.

Anyway...my automatic reaction when I first heard Raney was a combination of Bach 'n' Bird. I have a few albums on vinyl I haven't heard in years.

He was high on Bartok, too. Wouldn't stop talking about him...

I was in touch with his son Jon, a pianist-composer today. He may well check in here with a comment.

[Denis]

Thank you for this thread. Just a marvellous musician. Truly a master.

Anybody knows if any recorded music is left from that meeting with Stan, Al and Roy in the 80's ?

Denis, there's a video on youtube of the Woody Herman Herd with all those guys, Stan, Zoot, Al Cohn---if I remember right they all get a solo on Northwest Passage. There's a guitarist shown briefly and not featured. He looked like Jimmy but I wasn't sure. He had a crewcut, which threw me.

Yes I have seen that video of course. Just incredible. Stan, Zoot, Al and Serge Chaloff with Shorty Rogers.

But I had not paid any attention to the guitar player. I checked again.

I looked at discographies and Jimmy is listed on guitar on

the Northwest Passage track. Not sure 100% but it looks like it.

[7/4]

Anyway, I'm sorry I brought it up now, though it's a matter of semi-public record. We should stress the good things and he was the artist he was and set a very high standard to aspire to.

It's OK, I did a lot of R&D with the drinking for years before stopping in '07. It probably would have killed me.

Anyway...my automatic reaction when I first heard Raney was a combination of Bach 'n' Bird. I have a few albums on vinyl I haven't heard in years.

He was high on Bartok, too. Wouldn't stop talking about him...

I know about that, but I never heard it in his music.

Almost never - if I had turntable, I could check my copy of the album he did with a string qt. I vaguely remember something special about that one, maybe a Bartok influence.

I was in touch with his son Jon, a pianist-composer today. He may well check in here with a comment.

He should, he's shown up on USNET and AAJ. I think I posted his web site in another Jimmy thread. I hope nobody chases him off!

[Cliff Englewood]

Interesting to hear him talking about learning to play the solos of the greats, pretty much what Tristano used to preach as well I believe.

[AllenLowe]

"I was in touch with his son Jon, a pianist-composer today. He may well check in here with a comment."

"He should, he's shown up on USNET and AAJ. I think I posted his web site in another Jimmy thread. I hope nobody chases him off! "

I'll put him on my ignore list -

[fasstrack]

Anyway, I'm sorry I brought it up now, though it's a matter of semi-public record. We should stress the good things and he was the artist he was and set a very high standard to aspire to.

It's OK, I did a lot of R&D with the drinking for years before stopping in '07. It probably would have killed me.

Anyway...my automatic reaction when I first heard Raney was a combination of Bach 'n' Bird. I have a few albums on vinyl I haven't heard in years.

He was high on Bartok, too. Wouldn't stop talking about him...

I know about that, but I never heard it in his music.

Almost never - if I had turntable, I could check my copy of the album he did with a string qt. I vaguely remember something special about that one, maybe a Bartok influence.

I was in touch with his son Jon, a pianist-composer today. He may well check in here with a comment.

He should, he's shown up on USNET and AAJ. I think I posted his web site in another Jimmy thread. I hope nobody chases him off!

Uh uh. Why, pray tell, would they chase him off?

He told me he looked at thread here and seemed to dig it, whether or not he decides to comment. Very nice cat, too, I can tell.

[fasstrack]

Interesting to hear him talking about learning to play the solos of the greats, pretty much what Tristano used to preach as well I believe.

I've occasionally wondered what studying with Tristano would have been like. He would've kicked my ass, I'm sure, made a soldier outta me, he was probably a great teacher as far as the actual instruction. His surviving students are quite devoted and close-knit. But that cult.............

[fasstrack]

I know about that, but I never heard it in his music.

Almost never - if I had turntable, I could check my copy of the album he did with a string qt. I vaguely remember something special about that one, maybe a Bartok influence.

If you did hear that piece, Suite for Guitar Quintet, you would hear it immediately. Quartet #5. It's a nice performance, BTW. Jimmy in good shape. Strings were out of tune I thought (string players, not guitar strings) and I would've liked to hear it done over. But still it's a good piece and worth hearing. I had it on a Muse LP: Strings and Swings. The other side (that really dates me, I know) is a concert in Louisville with his friend Jack Brengle on bass and Bobby Jones on tenor.

Jon, if you read this again please comment. I for one would appreciate your insights and stories. I'm sure others on here would as well. You can do a much better job talking about your dad and cronies than a guy who took a few lessons and hung around him as a kid, and briefly at that.

Edited April 10, 2009 by fasstrack

[Cliff Englewood]

Interesting to hear him talking about learning to play the solos of the greats, pretty much what Tristano used to preach as well I believe.

I've occasionally wondered what studying with Tristano would have been like. He would've kicked my ass, I'm sure, made a soldier outta me, he was probably a great teacher as far as the actual instruction. His surviving students are quite devoted and close-knit. But that cult.............

Well I think the whole Tristano cult thing is a bit over played and probably not true, but I find it interesting that two great, original and unique soloists, from completely different backrounds would both give the same type of advice on how to start out, basically start imitating your heros until you find your own sound.

[fasstrack]

Interesting to hear him talking about learning to play the solos of the greats, pretty much what Tristano used to preach as well I believe.

I've occasionally wondered what studying with Tristano would have been like. He would've kicked my ass, I'm sure, made a soldier outta me, he was probably a great teacher as far as the actual instruction. His surviving students are quite devoted and close-knit. But that cult.............

Well I think the whole Tristano cult thing is a bit over played and probably not true, but I find it interesting that two great, original and unique soloists, from completely different backrounds would both give the same type of advice on how to start out, basically start imitating your heros until you find your own sound.

I absolutely agree with your second statement. The first, not so sure, but boy do I not want to go there. Me and my big mouth....

[AllenLowe]

Tristano's teaching technique was actually very basic - less learning solos than interval studies; somewhere I have a copy of a sheet that Sal Mosca made for a student, supposedly based on Tristano's original - all scales with altered intervals.

the day I spent with Tristano was quite bizarre - he was the only person I ever met who had what they used to call an aura; it was like he could see everything I did, and practically read my mind. A true cult leader and a bit scary and, ultimately, extremely unpleasant. He had a huge living room with nothing in it but two 9 foot grand Steinways; he said, "I charge a lot to teach people - and this is my price" - and he pointed to the two pianos - he lived in a very fancy neighborhood off of Grand Central Parkway, called Jamaica Estates.

I was glad to get outta there (alive) - I honestly think the whole thing around him is (was) a bit sick -

Edited April 10, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Raneyjr]

I know about that, but I never heard it in his music.

Almost never - if I had turntable, I could check my copy of the album he did with a string qt. I vaguely remember something special about that one, maybe a Bartok influence.

If you did hear that piece, Suite for Guitar Quintet, you would hear it immediately. Quartet #5. It's a nice performance, BTW. Jimmy in good shape. Strings were out of tune I thought (string players, not guitar strings) and I would've liked to hear it done over. But still it's a good piece and worth hearing. I had it on a Muse LP: Strings and Swings. The other side (that really dates me, I know) is a concert in Louisville with his friend Jack Brengle on bass and Bobby Jones on tenor.

Jon, if you read this again please comment. I for one would appreciate your insights and stories. I'm sure others on here would as well. You can do a much better job talking about your dad and cronies than a guy who took a few lessons and hung around him as a kid, and briefly at that.

Ok, Joel. I got a little break at work and I know that you're eager to hear my views on this.

In reference to Bartok, Joel you're right on the money. It was String Qt #5, that was most infuential to him although he liked them all. I'm pretty sure I have his original pocket score for it if anecdotes are not proof enough:) He was studying with Hall Overton at the time. He was a big fan of Bartok, late Beethoven and the great Ravel/Debussy quartets that are almost always paired together. So his original intention was to write a string quartet. It became a suite. The recording date for it 1957 is accurate however the Louisville concert date on the other side I'm almost certain is not. My recollection is 1967. His child sweetheart Ola Miracle arranged that concert. They were gigging together that year. Dad was still struggling with his addiction and a recent separation.

In terms of the intonation on Suite. Yeah the guitar sounds flat in relation to the strings, (I'm listening to it in my head, haven't heard it years given no turntable). It might be a tall order because string players play in tune in ref to each other and then the guitar comes in and gotta keep the best solo takes. Maybe it's Dad's fault:) Remember the Storyville Cuts, he was a bit flat there so... Mr. Raney can be a human at times:)

You can tell the influence on his classical studies on his 50s recordings, in terms of his arranging style. Generally speaking by the 70s, with the exception of some favorite artists almost listened exclusively to classical especially Beethoven, Bach and Bartok and not jazz.

In reference to Tristano. A friend of mine took a lesson from him. He said he arrived in his pad and the lights were off and he was sitting in the corner at the piano. This was a test of both his balls and his ear I guess My father was not a big fan of Tristano's playing btw. No offense to fans of him. Just not Dad's cup of tea. Or at least not his favs list. He thought he was a very cold player. Bud Powell and Bill Evans were his favorites. He liked Lee Konitz though and the tune Lee is for the most part dedicated to his style of writing.

See you guys later.

Jon

[fasstrack]

I know about that, but I never heard it in his music.

Almost never - if I had turntable, I could check my copy of the album he did with a string qt. I vaguely remember something special about that one, maybe a Bartok influence.

If you did hear that piece, Suite for Guitar Quintet, you would hear it immediately. Quartet #5. It's a nice performance, BTW. Jimmy in good shape. Strings were out of tune I thought (string players, not guitar strings) and I would've liked to hear it done over. But still it's a good piece and worth hearing. I had it on a Muse LP: Strings and Swings. The other side (that really dates me, I know) is a concert in Louisville with his friend Jack Brengle on bass and Bobby Jones on tenor.

Jon, if you read this again please comment. I for one would appreciate your insights and stories. I'm sure others on here would as well. You can do a much better job talking about your dad and cronies than a guy who took a few lessons and hung around him as a kid, and briefly at that.

Ok, Joel. I got a little break at work and I know that you're eager to hear my views on this.

In reference to Bartok, Joel you're right on the money. It was String Qt #5, that was most infuential to him although he liked them all. I'm pretty sure I have his original pocket score for it if anecdotes are not proof enough:) He was studying with Hall Overton at the time. He was a big fan of Bartok, late Beethoven and the great Ravel/Debussy quartets that are almost always paired together. So his original intention was to write a string quartet. It became a suite. The recording date for it 1957 is accurate however the Louisville concert date on the other side I'm almost certain is not. My recollection is 1967. His child sweetheart Ola Miracle arranged that concert. They were gigging together that year. Dad was still struggling with his addiction and a recent separation.

In terms of the intonation on Suite. Yeah the guitar sounds flat in relation to the strings, (I'm listening to it in my head, haven't heard it years given no turntable). It might be a tall order because string players play in tune in ref to each other and then the guitar comes in and gotta keep the best solo takes. Maybe it's Dad's fault:) Remember the Storyville Cuts, he was a bit flat there so... Mr. Raney can be a human at times:)

You can tell the influence on his classical studies on his 50s recordings, in terms of his arranging style. Generally speaking by the 70s, with the exception of some favorite artists almost listened exclusively to classical especially Beethoven, Bach and Bartok and not jazz.

In reference to Tristano. A friend of mine took a lesson from him. He said he arrived in his pad and the lights were off and he was sitting in the corner at the piano. This was a test of both his balls and his ear I guess My father was not a big fan of Tristano's playing btw. No offense to fans of him. Just not Dad's cup of tea. Or at least not his favs list. He thought he was a very cold player. Bud Powell and Bill Evans were his favorites. He liked Lee Konitz though and the tune Lee is for the most part dedicated to his style of writing.

See you guys later.

Jon

Beautiful, Jon. Thanks so much for checking in, your insights are worth more than mine in accuracy, not to mention 'Raneyness', and appreciated by all here, I'm sure. I have some memories but in no way am a spokesman for Jimmy, just an admirer and briefly a student. I know from your efforts on your own board that it would be gratifying to know how much impact Jimmy had and still has. He would love it too, I'm sure.

Thanks again, man, from the bottom.

[fasstrack]

To go back to stories, what I'm best at, I guess, re: Jimmy and Lee Konitz, Jimmy told me years ago Lee was kind of intense and he had a lot of gigs at one time, got a little nervous and said 'gee, maybe I should quit for a while, do something else'. He said like in the next sentence he heard Lee did some funny day gigs and was at one point a dogcatcher in LA!

Put me down as a fan of Lee's early stuff. I also love Warne Marsh, he could do no wrong. Whatever one thinks of Tristano, and again I ain't going down that road, he sure helped some great talent find themselves.

A funny couple of stories about Lee that I myself know of, having been there----and I claim no personal knowledge other than this, just appreciate his dead-on humor: I was hanging out with Bob Mover a lot in the late 70s. He had a couple of years and a lot of experience on me. He talked about Lee a lot and I was hearing Lee with different groups around town and studying with different cats trying to figure it out. I called Lee for a lesson. When I heard his price I sort of waffled a bit and told him it was a little over my head. Without missing a beat he cracked me up by saying 'I'll teach you everything I know in an hour and you'll never have to come back'......

A few years later I myself had one in a series of weird day gigs: selling fruit and nuts from a cart on Broadway. I saw Lee pass by and said hello. He asked me 'are you making your nut?

Very funny character and great player. I'm sorry I didn't study with him. Now my memory has been tripped and I recall speaking him at a place called Greene Street in Soho. He was playing a duo with Gil Evans and they sounded very special. Lee was very approachable and nice and we talked about Bird and probably other things. He's a jazz original, one of the few.

[fasstrack]

BTW: Jon is too modest to mention it, but is a pianist and composer at least one mutual friend I really respect thinks highly of.

[Joe G]

Thank you for posting, Jon. Drop in whenever!

[7/4]

I know about that, but I never heard it in his music.

Almost never - if I had turntable, I could check my copy of the album he did with a string qt. I vaguely remember something special about that one, maybe a Bartok influence.

If you did hear that piece, Suite for Guitar Quintet, you would hear it immediately. Quartet #5. It's a nice performance, BTW. Jimmy in good shape. Strings were out of tune I thought (string players, not guitar strings) and I would've liked to hear it done over. But still it's a good piece and worth hearing. I had it on a Muse LP: Strings and Swings. The other side (that really dates me, I know) is a concert in Louisville with his friend Jack Brengle on bass and Bobby Jones on tenor.

Yeah, that's it. I might buy a turntable this weekend just to hear it again.

[7/4]

See you guys later.

Jon

Thanks for stopping in Jon. I always find your posts interesting, no matter what forum they're on.

[fasstrack]

I know about that, but I never heard it in his music.

Almost never - if I had turntable, I could check my copy of the album he did with a string qt. I vaguely remember something special about that one, maybe a Bartok influence.

If you did hear that piece, Suite for Guitar Quintet, you would hear it immediately. Quartet #5. It's a nice performance, BTW. Jimmy in good shape. Strings were out of tune I thought (string players, not guitar strings) and I would've liked to hear it done over. But still it's a good piece and worth hearing. I had it on a Muse LP: Strings and Swings. The other side (that really dates me, I know) is a concert in Louisville with his friend Jack Brengle on bass and Bobby Jones on tenor.

Yeah, that's it. I might buy a turntable this weekend just to hear it again.

I feel your pain. I have hundreds of LPs and no turntable at the moment. Waiting to pounce at the thrift shop....

[Cliff Englewood]

In reference to Tristano. A friend of mine took a lesson from him. He said he arrived in his pad and the lights were off and he was sitting in the corner at the piano. This was a test of both his balls and his ear I guess My father was not a big fan of Tristano's playing btw. No offense to fans of him. Just not Dad's cup of tea. Or at least not his favs list. He thought he was a very cold player. Bud Powell and Bill Evans were his favorites. He liked Lee Konitz though and the tune Lee is for the most part dedicated to his style of writing.

See you guys later.

Jon

Welcome Jon and thanks for the post. I am a huge fan of your fathers work, especially his recordings with Getz, imho those recordings are up there with the best of the best of "Jazz".

Very interesting to hear that your father was not a fan of Tristano's playing yet he was a fan of Bill Evans, many people, including myself find Evans a very cold player. :D But then again, I was reading an Evans quote recently where he said something like Konitz and Marsh were far more of an influence on him then Lennie was, especially those early Prestige sides. So even someone like Evans, who I thought would have loved Tristano didn't dig him as much as you would think. I always thought Jimmy Raney must have played with some of the Tristano gang at some stage.

Anyway, I like many others, would love if you would share any stories/memories of your father here, we don't get many sons of real Jazz legends, though we have quite a few sons of bit....... well never mind.

P.S. from a purely nerd point of view, what ever happened to your fathers old guitars, his ES-150 should be in the Smithsonian or something, that axe must have some serious mojo, if it's still in one piece that is.

[fasstrack]

...his ES-150 should be in the Smithsonian or something, that axe must have some serious mojo, if it's still in one piece that is.

[Cliff Englewood]

...his ES-150 should be in the Smithsonian or something, that axe must have some serious mojo, if it's still in one piece that is.

I'm sure it would need new frets at the very least!!!

Edited April 10, 2009 by Cliff Englewood

[fasstrack]

...his ES-150 should be in the Smithsonian or something, that axe must have some serious mojo, if it's still in one piece that is.

I'm sure it would need new frets at the very least!!!

There was a vol. 2? What tunes are on it? There are a few recordings I don't have: one called Here's That Rainy Day, from the 80s. There are also some that aren't as well known, like Live at Birdland 1950 w/Getz. It's not as well-known as the famous Storyville stuff, but great all around and Stan is just an animal on it, tears it up. There's also something I can't quite remember with a tenor player---Wardell Grey? I'm totally not remembering, but it was early on and he sounded great. The Charlie Christian influence was still very strong. He must've been 21-22. Then I've been hearing In 3 Attitudes, the whole CD of which seems to be posted on youtube. I hope you and Doug are getting some money, Jon. There are originals on it....David X. Young's Jazz Loft has two long tracks with great Jimmy, and a young Jim Hall---new in town---also Brookmeyer, Pepper Adams, Zoot, Dave McKenna, and absolutely knockout artwork by David. There are some essays about Young and that whole scene in his loft by Brook, Teddy Charles, and Young himself. It's great and well worth buying if it's still around.