Conversations with Jim Anderson

[caaudio]

Jim, thanks for posting my email.

Young Buck,

Some comments on your gear list. Watch out for the Mackie monitors. They tend to have sloppy bass and the adjustment for this does not fix it. You NEED to have descent monitors. Without them you have no way to rely on what you are hearing. A high quality/neutral monitor will allow you to make good decisions about what you are hearing. There are so many speakers out there and they are really easy to sell because most people have no objective way of guaging the speaker's performance. Plus, we tend to be sensitive to a little "hype" in our listening experience. I believe this can be attributed to the popularity of many of the monitors that are available today. Remeber if you mix on a monitor that is anything but predicable and true your recordings will reflect this but in the inverse (bass heavy speaker yields bass light recordings.) The Meyer HD1s and Genelec 1031s are truly good monitors and have been mentioned a few times in this post already. I got my HD1s used for $1500/pr and had them re-certified by Meyer. If you are going to end up with monitors on which you have no basis of reliance, then you will need to check your work on a few different monitors in different environments. This will help you understand the characteristics of each of these monitors with reference to your work. On second thought, just get good monitors.

As far as mics go, it is against the laws of the universe that a $150 mic is going to compete with some of the great mics that are used on the recordings that we love and try so hard to emulate. With budget in mind. I have used the Rode stuff and have been impressed with their cleanliness relative to price. The AT stuff is very popular (once again price to performance). The AKG414 is an industry workhorse and is down to about $500 now if you look hard. NOTHING replaces the Neumanns, Sankens, Sennheisers, Brauners and Schoeps stuff.

I know that it would be nice to hear that there is some secret piece of gear out there that is really cheap and kicks total butt. Thank the Sound Gods that there isn't. Get the nicest stuff you can get your hands on. This is the equipment used on the great recordings that are the benchmark that we judge our work by. I think that Greg Mackie and a lot of the gear that you can buy over the phone today has done plenty to dumb down our art and audience (lets see if I have stirred up a hornets nest with this one).

Good Luck!!

[jazzhound]

Welcome aboard caaudio!

Can you provide some insight into why the sound at most pop concerts is so wretched? It sounds to me like the mixers are overdriving the front ends of the consoles, or are using so much eq the orginal sound is destroyed.(I haven't heard a decent drum sound live in years.) And I'm not talking large venues but medium size theaters .

Are the consoles they are using cheesy or are these guys ears fried?

[caaudio]

Ahh, one of the great quandries of our time. The shows do sound wretched and it is everyones fault. I would be happy to go back and forth on this for a while as there is so much to cover. To kick things off, I was not being flip when I said it was everyones fault. All parties contribute to the overall sound of the show. Here are the broad considerations. I would be happy to expound if interest prevails. In absolutely no particular order:

The Venues - Few concerts are held in appropriate venues. Arenas sound wretched but seat tons of people, clubs and bars are too small to have amplified bands in them, and those "acoutically perfect" theaters and concert halls were not built with amplified music in mind. In addition, the emphasis on ticket sales forces sound systems to be placed where they do not affect sightlines and people are often seated anywhere a chair will fit whether or not there has been consideration for sound coverage there.

The Promoters/Producers - No one wants to spend money on audio. Sound is a very competetively bid service whose costs have risen 10 fold in the past 20 years but rates have been held flat (once you compensate for inflation.) An emphasis on audio quality is a rare trait on but a few concerts especially if it costs money.

Engineers - Here is something I would love to dig into. The person mixing your show may have gotten their position in a variety of ways. Not all of these ways has to do with qualifications. I would love to see a Sound System Drivers Licsense program to keep hobbyists and unqualified people out from behind the consoles.

The Artist/Band - It is very likely that the engineer does not have a chance to mix a descent show. Between the monitor rig, whose levels are specified by the musicians and every guitar and bass amplifier/rig, there is no clean audio to be had on stage. As a matter of fact the first 10 - 20 rows of a show can be innundated with this wash of sound sources coming from stage. Do you know that a drummer who is sitting right on top of his drum set will have 2 monitor speakers and a subwoofer or even a full range PA speaker or 2 for his monitoring? Do you know what is coming out of these speakers??? The drum kit, very loud!! The drum riser can have SPL reading of up to 130 decibels from the drum kit and monitor systems. We are often times forces to trigger a sampler for at least the kick and snare sounds just to maintain any show at all. This is a trick I have used quite effectively. To their credit many of the Country acts have been leading the charge with in-ear monitoring and banishment of all the guitar/bass amps from the stage. I have a show coming up in October where we are doing just that. If I can not get a mix together for that show, I will have to surrender my Sound System Drivers Licsense.

Have you ever seen one of the engineers at a live show that spends most of or the whole show mixing on headphones. "I'll bet your mix sounds great in there buddy. Now how bout taking those off and mixing for the rest of us!"

I know this barely touches on you query but I though I would start with the broad issues. I have tons to unload about each so take your pick.

Respectfully,

Chris

[Joe G]

Chris,

As a musician (electric guitarist), I would be interested to hear what else you have to say about how the stage setup could be more conducive to good sound production. I realize that oftentimes it's a battle between what the performer needs and what the engineer needs to do their respective jobs. Any helpful tips would be appreciated.

The last two concerts I've seen were the Pat Metheny Group at the College of Du Page (small theater seating 800 or so), and the John Scofield Band at the Blind Pig (typical dive club). I thought the PMG had an excellent sound overall. We were all the way back & center, and the levels and tonalities were very pleasing and balanced. I think it's David Oakes that runs their sound; I wonder if you know him personally and have discussed how they do things? The sound for Sco's group seemed to take a while to gel, and it's just like you said, the club was too small for that kind of amplification. (This was John's funk group.) I was wishing I had brought ear protection. It doesn't seem like there is any good solution for music in bars-trying to be heard over talking in a room with horrible acoustics to begin with is a seemingly no-win situation.

Thanks for taking the time to share your expertise with us.

Joe

Edited April 7, 2003 by Joe G

[Young Buck]

Chris, thanks for the advice...unfortunately, I'll be on the other side of the store window drolling at the Nuemans, etc. for quite some time...for now, we have $7k to build a base of a recording studio. We are putting most of our $$ into a DAW that we will be happy with for __ yrs, and hoping we will continue to get more funding to fill in the mic/pre section later. The monitor situation is sticky, though, because we will probably be stuck with what we buy now...but we can't really offord too much more than $1000/pair. Can you think of any options in that range that beat the Mackies? I know, I know...you get what you pay for...but what is my best options considering the limitation? Would you advise me to perhaps drop anything off the list (replace the condensors with MXL's, or...) to allocate more money to the monitors? Because I will probably be able to get better mics in a half a year (maybe)... Let me know what you think...

BTW, I am well aware of some of the ridiculously hilarious things some of these "artists" like to pull off before/during the show. I did sound for a company in Pittsburg...Northern Sound and Lights...and we had some pretty interesting experiences...I have to run to class right now, but I'll tell you about one in particular later...it involves the artists b*tching at the monitor guy for about 3-4 minutes straight in between songs DURING THE SHOW! And to make it better, he was talking through his mic (which was obviously going through FOW) even though he was about 5 feet from the monitor guy.......geez...

[Jim Alfredson]

As far as mics go, it is against the laws of the universe that a $150 mic is going to compete with some of the great mics that are used on the recordings that we love and try so hard to emulate. With budget in mind. I have used the Rode stuff and have been impressed with their cleanliness relative to price.

Well, if you haven't heard the MXL mics I strongly suggest you order a MXL2001 mic pack (which includes the 2001 and the 603S) and try them out. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

The engineer who suggested them to me is very trustworthy and has incredible ears. He designs studios and monitor speakers in his "spare" time and like I said before, owns a pair of every expensive mic you can name. I trust his judgement and by his account, you can get one helluva mic for $150! They are worth checking out by anyone, but especially someone on a tight budget.

[Young Buck]

B-3, I just noticed your signature...very nice! That has to be the craziest song (there are parts which are in 19/4! And Vinnie Caliuta is on top of it!)

I appreciate your advice on the MXL's...I imagine a well designed cheap mic could sound good, and I'd have to hear it before I discredited it.

The way it is right now, I had a little bit of head room in the budget...not enough to upgrade the Mackie HR624's to Genelec's, so I decided to upgrade my mics. My two L.D. condensors are AT3035 and AKG Solid Tube. I'm pretty sure that this will be our final choice, but it may be a few days before we cut the check, so if anyone has any solid objections, please let me know.

Jim, I did as you said...I arranged a 30-day trial period to test out the equipment to make sure it is what I want. Thank you all for all of your advice...I would have been clueless buying this gear if it weren't for y'all, so.... Thanks a million. I'll let you know how it sounds when I have it on tape...possibly send some recordings to y'all. But, again, thank you.

[jim anderson]

Go and push the red button.

Best of sessions!

[Young Buck]

Well, I made the order yesterday.

I settled on the AT3035 and the AKGC3000B mics, and the Mackie monitors. These weren't my first choices, but I think it gets me the most for our budget, so...

But I just want to say thanks again to all y'all for helping me put that list together. Can't wait to "push the red button"! WE'RE ROLLING!!

Edited April 16, 2003 by Young Buck

[larsrec]

Young Buck,

Since you are getting an AKG Solid Tube, try the following modification: Loosen the set screw that holds the capsule and electronics in the housing and remove the foam windscreen that surrounds the capsule. I found this opened up the mic considerably and didn't seem to make it appreciably more susceptible to plosives. You can usually avoid plosives with careful placement or a pop screen if you use it with vocalists.

[rodgerjollie]

Hi Jim and all

Jim was wondering if you could discuss some ways of dealing with recording piano and acoustic bass in live group settings.

I'm really interested in if you have certain methods of dealing with bleed from other instruments, mic placement & choice of mic in this situation. What are the compromises you would make to get a workable sound?

Issues which are not so much of a problem in a studio, but degrade the overall band sound significantly when everyone's playing in close proximity on a stage (esp with a loud drummer).

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[mikeweil]

Jim, a rather general question: When you are mixing a record someone else has recorded, do you add reverb to the mix? And to what extent? Do you use reverb and how much when recording? Or do you add it only later in the mix, if you use it at all?

Thanks ...

[Joe G]

I wish Jim would come back to us; his last post was on 4/11!

[catesta]

Anyone try sending him an email?

[mikeweil]

Let's hope he's just too busy; maybe the questions were not that interesting, something was too special for me, at least, but never mind ...

[Gerry]

I heard from Jim a month, or so, ago. He said he's been busy with, "all good stuff." Hopefully, some of that good stuff will make it into our decks soon.

[jim anderson]

My most sincere apologies to all, but I have been busy, here and some of it not directly related to recording projects. And you must remember when baseball season begins, my loyalties get stretched very thin!

As a VP of the Audio Engineering Society, I was invited to speak at the Toronto Day-long seminar "From the Producer's Chair". A fascinating day at the Regent Theatre (a teriffic post place during the day/and a first run movie house at night) which featured producers/engineers from TV (David Greene), Pop (Bob Ezrin), Film Scoring, and me on Jazz.

I was also in Banff, Alberta for the Conference on Surround Sound with the likes of Bob Ludwig, George Massenberg, Peter Cook, Geoff Martin, David Moulton, Akira Fukada (and on and on) and about 200 other illuminaries-amazing people (here's a link:

http://audioworld.com/cgi-bin/FrameIt.cgi?...ile=FrameIt.cfg

and another http://www.banffcentre.ca/aes/) Paul Stubblebine and I presented a stereo/surround recording that we had worked on for FIM "The Flying Song" - chinese traditional instruements to be released first in XRCD and then in SACD stereo and 5.1

I also was in Vancouver working on the 2nd Chinese project for FIM, last weekend, that should be out next spring. I'm also finishing a new Von Freeman recording that's due out in the fall on Premonition.

And not to mention I'm on the committe (with some very gifted people) helping to create the upcoming AES Convention in October (10-14). Hope you can make it to NYC!!! (another link: http://www.aes.org/events/115/)

But the real news is in a press release that's going out soon:

Jim Anderson, AES VP for Eastern Sections US and Canada, has been appointed Visiting Professor in the newly created Clive Davis Department for Recorded Music in the Tish School for the Arts at New York University. The Clive Davis Department of Recorded Music offers a course of study leading to a Bachelor of Fine Arts that is designed to educate students in all aspects of contemporary recorded music, with a special focus on the art of identifying musical talent and developing creative material within the complex range of recorded music technologies. The program, the first of its kind in the country, recognizes the creative record producer as an artist in their own right and musical recording itself as a creative medium. Anderson has been active on the New York recording scene for the past 23 years and prior to that was on staff at National Public Radio.

And I've been seriously hitting the books!

Ok that's enough about me.

Edited July 18, 2003 by jim anderson

[jim anderson]

Roger,

There's a couple of ways to set up a piano trio in a live situation that will result in a satisfactory recording. I've done it with Billy Taylor in the studio (where he doesn't want to wear headphones and he sets up this way live, too). On stage right (audience left) is the drummer, next to him is the bass player and to the bass player's left is the pianist's back. The two should be taking cues from the pianist anyway and really don't need to see his face for cues, the bass player can also watch the pianist's left hand for any quick changes he might make to the bottom of the chords.

(Urban Griot, is the BT album in question). Also Oscar Peterson live at the BlueNote on Telarc was set up this way. The addition of the guitar slightly infront and stage right to the bass was the only change. This set-up gives you a fighting chance at a decent piano sound. A little plexi-sometimes can help, too. On Benny Greene "Testifyin'" at the Village Vanguard we put a couple of pieces around Carl's drum kit, but only about 3' high. Enough to help the recording but not enough to change the live sound for the band.

[jim anderson]

Mike,

My technique in recording (multitrack, that is) is to not do anything that I can't reverse later. This means my tracks will be dry (no reverb) and flat (no eq) for the most part. This comes from many reasons: the wonderful tube eq that you've been using on the featured horn player has begun to spit and sputter during THE take, for example...Taste in reverb changes over time, big room, small room, no room...Most of the recordings from studios are close miked and something has to be added in the mix. If someone else is mixing a multi that I've recorded, I shouldn't box them into a sound and I'm not crazy about it if they've done that to me. They should have put some of the air from the room on a couple of extra tracks for me. That always comes in handy (Val Valentine taught me that).

In the mix we'll use what we think makes a credible recording. If you listen to the new Jane Ira Bloom "Chasing Paint", James Farber recorded her band in a small basement studio in New York's Soho section. I mixed it at Avatar using the Sony 777 Sampling reverb, using a sampled space that I had made and also the Concertgebow sample that Sony provided (St. John the Devine comes in handy, too). Those factors you shouldn't be aware of. It should seem that it was always like this.

[mikeweil]

Mike,

My technique in recording (multitrack, that is) is to not do anything that I can't reverse later. This means my tracks will be dry (no reverb) and flat (no eq) for the most part.

.....

Those factors you shouldn't be aware of. It should seem that it was always like this.

Thanks Jim for your reply. I wanted to ask about another Jane Ira Bloom recording you mixed but did not record. I thought you'd handle it that way. But I keep asking myself: what's wrong about the sound of a basement studio? Who wants it to sound like Carnegie Hall, the musicians, the producer, or is it a widespread sound esthetic you have to follow, or do you - or anybody else in the process - simply like it better that way? In a way, isn't that cheating? - A friend of mine had an organ CD made in a church in northern Germany sounding like a big cathedral but was surprised to find a small building with rather dry acoustics when he visited that particular church ...

And: do YOU hear the difference, if it was recorded that way or in a small basement studio?

[jim anderson]

The only thing wrong with a basement studio is if it puts the aural stamp of 'basement studio' on the recording and I can't do anything otherwise with the tracks.

It's a combination of myself, the artist and the music itself that is telling us to leave it in the basement studio or put it in Carnegie Hall. Jane loves for her music to soar and it's my job to make it do that with whatever it takes to do that.

If it didn't soar, you'd know it and, at the least, be wondering: "What happened?"

[jim anderson]

Next?

[Soul Stream]

Jim,

We had talked earlier about those great Patton sessions you had done. I often have a hard time communicating to sound engineers what the needs of a B3 in a jazz context (i.e. bass w/pedals, ect) are soundwise. What do you suggest as a good basic setup for micing the Leslie both in the studio and perhaps live. Do you take a direct feed off of the organ preamp as well? And if so, how do you do that exactly....

Thanks for any help you might offer.

[michel devos]

[

Thanks for any help you might offer.

[jim anderson]

Hi,

For some reason I've recorded quite a few organ albums in my day. I use a basic technique that i picked up from Hollywood mixer Ed Greene: 2 omnis across from each other (180º) and a card in the bottom/back. On both make sure you don't get hit by wind blasts as the mechanisms fly by top and bottom.

Now it's critical for the player to get the mix of right hand lines (or left and right hand lines) and bass lines (whether they come from pedals-which many times they don't-or from the left hand-which many times they do) because all the bottom speaker is - is a low pass of the horns on top and the horns on top is a high pass of the feed for the bottom.

i have taken in a di from the organ for being able to tighten up the bottom end (on one of my favorite cd's Dan Wall's "Off the Wall" on Enja-track 2 is a killer and should have been the opening track!). Dan had never had that done to his organ in the past and found it invaluable to getting the sound that he wanted.

i've been told by very reliable sources that the di is the key to the early jimmy smith recordings by rvg, who shall remain nameless

mic pre designer, john hardy, an accomplished organist in his own right, gave me a schematic for the b3 and leslie which we used for determining the proper spot for picking off the sound

i do recommend finding one and going to a good tech to give you a hand, otherwise you'll have that club owner on your back again

also, CHECK THE POLARITY when you record

i can't stress this enough!

now, i was at a day long seminar in toronto this past june and presented a couple of tracks, one of which was from jimmy smith's damn (same organ set up as angel eyes-previous day) and Ed Greene's brother Dave, a monster mixer based in Toronto, told me he disagrees with his brother's technique and likes to put the upper microphones at 90º

He feels that you get more of the leslie effect at 90º than at 180º

My feeling is that you've cut yourself down to recording 25% of the swing of the top speakers instead of 50%.

Everyone to their own devices.

One effective approach to the bassline/pedal clarity is German organist Barbara Dennerlein. She has a special midi pedal that she takes with her, and uses with any organ, and triggers that to a sample that she has of a bass player. it may be a famous bass player but don't tell them, there will be royalties to pay. (and i'm only guessing, i didn't ask because i didn't want to know)

as far as mics, i may have stated this in the past, but i've consistantly used b and k 4007's for the top and sanken cu-41's for the bottom

with the omni-it's less prone to wind noise

hope that clears things up

Edited October 1, 2003 by jim anderson