Conversations with Jim Anderson

[jazzhound]

Could someone tell me what a 1604 is and what David meant by a dixie cup setup in regard to his description of the Lovano Vanguard recording (which I think is great.)?

thanks.

It is important to note that even though some less than state of the art gear is used to record the tracks in some situations, mixing down using a Neve or another great console helps considerably.

Also skilled engineers know how to maximize the headroom of whatever gear they are using,( a skill that many live mixers seem not to have these days. )

[jim anderson]

I believe a 1604 is a Mackie 16input 4 bus mixer and he was probably doing the mix live to 2.

Headroom and gain structure is the key to everything.

[Jim Alfredson]

The original Mackie 1604 does not have seperate buses. One master bus is all you have. Along with six aux sends and their patented mute/3-4 out scheme.

Is Millenia still around?

[jim anderson]

I sit corrected.

Millenia and John La Grou are very much around.

Here's a link to his site:

http://www.mil-media.com/docs/products/

[Jim Alfredson]

Cool! You can see how hip I am to the real high-end stuff. Man, $4k for an eight channel Millenia mic pre. That would be nice!

One of my dreams is to make a digital 24/96 portable computer based recording system. I don't want to use a laptop (not expandable enough). Rather, I'd like to build a rack-mountable PC (yeah yeah I know... PC... but Macs are a little out of my price range. I can build a really fast PC for about $400 plus stick it in a 3 space rack), stick Cubase SX on it and get one of those new MOTU 24 I/O (24 ins and outs in one rack space via firewire). I have my Presonus, so I'd need two more 8 channel mic pres. Like you said, Jim, it would be nice to get two different brands for color. I've always wanted a Precision 8 and a Millenia would be nice, but it's a tad out of my price range!

What are some other good 4 or 8 channel mic pre's for under $2k?

[jim anderson]

Back on Page 3 Larsrec wrote:

On the subject of mic pres, I love my Precision 8, my Milennia HD-3, and Night Technologies PreQ3 (I believe you and I used all of these along with your Hardy's on Patricia Barber's Companion CD.)  The Precision and the Milennia are transformerless and in the straight-wire-with-gain family.  The Night Technologies units sound a lot to me like John Hardy's units but unfortunately are no longer made.  David Baker swears by the Presonus 8 channel unit.  If I were buying new pres I'd be hard-pressed to decide between Hardys, Grace, and/or more channels of Milennia.  Cheaper options would be the new Focusrite OctoPre, which reportedly contain the same pres as my Digi Control 24 (usable but not exciting) and the Presonus.

John Larson

Edited March 17, 2003 by jim anderson

[larsrec]

One other suggestion for a good low-priced 8 channel mic pre: The Yamaha HA-8. These were originally made by Yamaha as part of their 20-bit digital recording system and originally sold for about $1500. They are rugged, well-made, and sound very good, especially on drums and percussion. Tom Jung made many recordings with them as his primary mic pre and got rave reviews from the audiophile press (admittedly not always a thing to brag about.) I don't think they're being made anymore but you could look for one on e-bay. I bought one for an extra 8 channels for a portable rig for $400.

I agree with David and Jim that obsession with equipment can sometimes distract us from the real task of improving our listening skills and our ability to extract the best performances from the musicians on the other side of the glass. If you can't make a good-sounding record with a Mackie and some SM-57's, you can dream about those Brauners, a Meitner convertor, and a DSD recorder, but it probably won't help much.

[jim anderson]

And furthering that thought, I've always felt the more 'smart money' that you throw into equipment, the better the ultimate result.

(smart definitely doesn't = expensive)

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Question for Jim:

Yesterday I got in a CD order with the two recently remastered Ornette Coleman dates "At the Golden Circle Vol. 1 & Vol. 2". Man, these sound like they were recorded yesterday. I was told they sounded good but these were still a suprise.

Anyway, there's a recording anomaly on these sessions that I was wondering if you could explain the cause (and effect?). It's most noticeable on Volume 1 on the 2nd track, "Faces and Places". It's this "woooo-ooooooo" background noise. It's nearly constant and I've always thought this was a cymble artifact. The ride cymble maybe? If you know what I'm talking about, could you tell me what your best guess is causing it? Is it the mic, mic placement or rec levels? Does this have a "name" in recording circles? I find it prevalent in live recordings but it even seems to crop up in the studio.

The main reason I ask is because I seem to have a bit of a hearing issue with it. It causes me this feeling like a bee is buzzing around my head (after a while). Very annoying... I can only imagine it's resonating on my slight case of tinnitus in my right ear. Hey, at least my ears don't start bleeding or anything.

Thanks,

Kevin

[Young Buck]

Quick question for y'all... Does anyone have any feelings on FocusRite pre's? Because I need an analog-to-ADAT converter to interface with the Digi 002 system, and the FocusRite OctoPre has 8 mic pre's and converts to ADAT to import to the 002 system. Can you recommend any other ADAT converter's? Here's the website for the OctoPre...any thoughts are very much appreciated!

http://www.focusrite.com/products/platinum...opre/index.html

Also, a rep from sweetwater recommended ADAM P11a monitors (w/ ribbon tweets). Any thoughts?

Besides that, I'm making great progress on the recording gear I'm going to buy. I just talked to DigiDesign, and they told me to never skimp on the processor speed and worry about upgrading RAM later (he said starting with 512 MB should be enough). He said with too many plug-in's, you'll run into a ceiling with a slower processor. Also he said the new version of ProTools LE (out in a few months) will be able to run on OS10 and will be able to take advantage of the dual processor.

As always, thanks for the advice...

[jim anderson]

Kevin, my question would be: is it a high "wooooo" or a low "woooo"?

Now, I'm not familiar with the Ornette recording you're referring to, but if it's a low sound, I've had the experience that you can end up micing an area on the high hat where, if they're not damped, can ring almost forever. It's around 200hz or so and it's hard figuring out where it's coming from. It also means you're too close, or you've managed to put the mic exactly in the wrong spot (also, a small piece of tape on a cymbal can take care of this unwanted ring).

Interestingly, Jack DeJohnette's large cymbals have a fundamental around 125 hz (or so) and tends to keep everything nice and crisp.

Buck, I've used the Focusrite and have liked them very much. The one thing that I'd recommend, since you're on a tight budget, is to get the manufacturers to give you a 30 trial, with all money back to see how you like their gear; Speakers included. I have yet to have anyone turn me down with that request. You'll be much happier in the long run.

The one thing with the all in one package is the convenience with clocking. That does help to solve a miriad of problems

Edited March 28, 2003 by jim anderson

[Young Buck]

200Hz from a Hi Hat!?! I didn't know that was possible. Wouldn't you normally high-pass that channel anyway to prevent phase disturbance with the kik, etc?

[jim anderson]

I always put a high pass around 160hz on the high hat, I hate to go much higher (and a little 8K and perhaps a 10K shelf, too).

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Jim, I was talking to Michael Cuscuna about this recording and he thinks it's something coming from the bass amp... the bass amp resonating with a cymble? That sounds even weirder to me. It definitely seems to stop when drummer Charles Moffett stops hitting a cymble. Is it unusual for a bass generating output to couple so strongly with a cymble?

BTW, Michael said that if this disortion weren't present, he would have been able to release a ton more from this session. He says that it gets much worse on the stuff still in the can. Too bad... this is some great Ornette.

Later,

Kevin

[jim anderson]

Ah, a bass amp!

I'll bet you it's feedback from the speaker of the amp to the pickup or perhaps the pickup is picking up acoustic sounds (from the drums, possibly? can happen), other that those made by the bass and thereby causing the ring (or feedback).

Knowing Michael, I'd say he's right.

Edited April 2, 2003 by jim anderson

[Claude]

I just listened to track 2 from Golden Circle Vol.1. My guess (not knowing anything about recording technique) is that the mic capturing the ride cymbal was placed too close to the center of the cymbal. Maybe it was put under the cymbal.

The sound Kevin mentions reminds me of one of those big chinese vertical cymbals (don't know the english word), just higher pitched. It definitely changes with Moffett's playing and not with the bass notes.

[Young Buck]

Well, I'm sorry if I have been using y'all as my personal consulting crew...and you all have really gave me some invaluable insight for the equipment our club is about to buy. We are probably going to make the purchases this Friday/Monday, and I want to run this list by y'all one time before I go ahead and buy it all. If anyone wants to take a moment to glance down the list and see if there is anything that you would advise that we shouldn't buy, or something we should buy instead, or if you feel that a price is too high, or... As always, all advice is good advice and very much appreciated... FYI, we have a $7,000 budget, and this list was offered to me for $7k including shipping...any thoughts?

Digidesign Digi002 - $1995

4) Shure SM57 - $72 each

Rode NT5 (matched pair of sm diaphragm condensers) - $235

Audix DP2 drum mic kit 1) D1, 2) D2, 1) D4, 4) Dflex mounts - $410

Rode NT1000 - $240

AKG C3000B - $295

Focusrite Octopre with ADAT card - $970 ($795 + $175)

8) AKG K55 headphones - $32 each

Samson SPhones headphone amp - $139

ProCo 75' snake, 16 XLR ins, 4 TRS returns - $265

700' ProCo raw mic cable - $140

25) male XLR cable mount connectors - $1.85 each

25) female XLR cable mount connectors - $1.95 each

2) QuikLok A341 short boom stands - $30 each

6) QuikLok A300 boom stands - $23 each

2) A205BK heavy duty boom stands - $37 each

2) Mackie HR624 powered monitors - $420 each

Producing in the Home Studio with ProTools Book - $25

4) Hosa GXP143 XLRF to TRS adapters - $4.65 each

Roxio Toast N Jam CD burning software - $175

6' lightpipe cable - $8

4) TRS 1/4" connectors - $2.35 each

2) PreSonus Blue Tube - $135 each

8) 1/4" TS connectors - $1.20 each

Shipping $200

Edited April 2, 2003 by Young Buck

[Jim Alfredson]

Young Buck,

How exciting! Nice list of gear. I would only suggest that you look at the MXL Condensor Mic package that many retailers are selling. It includes a MXL2001 large diaphragm condenser and a MXL603S small diaphragm condenser. The MXL2001 is comparable to the Rode NT1000 and the MXL603S is comparable to the Rode NT5. The pack costs around $150 for BOTH mics. That means you could get two packs for around $300 and have two small diaphragm condensors for drum overheads, etc and two large diaphragm condensers, instead of spending almost $500 and getting three mics.

I'm sure you can get a matched pair of the MXL603S. You might have to order directly from the manufacturer, though. Or let me know. The engineer who recorded my trio record is a distributor and can get them very inexpensively.

MXL Web Site

These mics are very highly recommended and sound as good if not better than the Rodes. The aforementioned engineer who recorded our album has every expensive mic you can think of and raves about the MXLs. He did side-by-side comparisons between the 2001 and a Neumann U87 and although the Neumann still beats the MXL, he says that they are very very similair in sound and it's as close as you can get without spending mucho $$$$.

Just food for thought.

[jim anderson]

The list looks very good and the prices fair. I would make sure that with your vendor establish an agreement that you can return or exchange anything that you're not happy with or might like to 'audition'.

Best of luck with your new rig!!

[larsrec]

Young Buck,

Given your budget constraints that looks like a pretty good list to me, too. Given a good sounding room and some good players you should be able to make some nice recordings with that rig. If you're planning to mix entirely "in the box" don't forget to budget for some plug-ins. The freebies you'll get from Digi with the 002 will be a good start, though.

Have fun.

[Young Buck]

Wow, thanks fellas...(or ladies, if anyone is...???). So if I got an MXL mic, would you recommend that I scrap the Rode or the AKG (or another one I was looking into was the Audio Technica AT3035). Which of the three would you keep?

[jim anderson]

I'd want to give all three a listen and then decide, of you can arrange it. The other thing is that I always like to have a pair of microphones and never one of anything.

[jim anderson]

My nephew, Chris Anderson, is a talented engineer specializing in live sound and reinforcement. I'm posting an e-mail he sent me, yesterday. I'm presenting this to show some of the insanity we face in real situations. The Diva in question has, unfortunately for us, taken an audio course and is a shining example of a little knowledge being dangerous, very dangerous. I'm choosing to not disclose the name and location to protect the guilty. Chris writes:

Fellow production folk,

Because I care, I am sending this to save you the potential mistake of ever working or vending an (insert name of Diva<ja>) concert. I have mistakenly found myself mixing monitors for 2 dates here in (city in California<ja>) and as you can guess, I will never do it again. In utter disbelief I have written down many of the things that have occurred today as they are too absurd to just be forgotten.

A note: A lot of this will not make sense to you. It did not make sense to us today either and was the source of myriad debates that occurred during this (insert action done to pig<ja>). I know what you're thinking, and I was the consummate professional. I was praised by many including the road manager and agent for not beating her lifeless right there on the stage. There were actually 3 monitor people here for the show. She insisted that no one be in charge but that we work together to "get it done." Keep in mind this crew was highly competent and had great attitudes. Despite this here is what happended.

First some background: I spoke to DIVA's agent, road manager and Diva herself prior to coming to (city in California). I was told they have had some problems with monitor engineers in the past and they needed a patient and even tempered engineer for this show (stop laughing). The sound company was briefed same and to hedge their bet, brought excellent gear: Midas Heritage 3000, Meyer, Clair and EAW wedges (she got to pick) and EAW line array. I was faxed a memo from her with 5 points to follow for the show.

1. Do not use any splitters to get her mic into the consoles. "Just go direct."

2. Do not use any compression whatsoever on her mic/wedge/mix.

3. Do not use any eq on her channel/wedge/mix.

4. Do not set anything (what is there to set?) before she gets there.

5. Set all gains to Max for maximum gain and headroom.

We began the day with signal flow. She supervised (supposedly she took a 6 week course in sound somewhere and is now completely untrusting of anyone who does sound as well). We connected her vocal mic directly to an input on the monitor desk, fed FOH from the pre fader direct out and then fed her vocal verb from a mix send on the desk. This was okay for about 1 minute. She decided that you cannot use a mix to feed the reverb and switched the reverb send to the direct out so it would "just come back on the faders." We were supposed to put the FOH feed on the "other" direct out, "these consoles have hundreds of direct outs don't they". We tried to fake her out by feeding FOH with a mix. For the rest of the day we changed this simple routing in the console as it was unacceptable to use the monitor board as monitor board.

As this story starts to get really boring and no better, here are the highlights of the day as bullet points.(and in case you were wondering, you don't tell her anything, you also do not debate or otherwise offer a counter opinion.)

-Essentially she wanted to magically split her vocal mic into 3 sends without using splitters or the console.

-We changed her wedges twice

-We changed her verbs twice because they "didn't move the meters on the console"

-After the grueling 4 hour sound check where each band member pulled me aside and apologized for her, she changed her vocal mic right before curtain

-We were not allowed to use a mix or send to drive her monitor mix

-She cut all the subwoofers after soundcheck (had them removed) because her show didn't need "all that bass." This was not based on stage boom as it was very tame. It was based on perception. She never went out to listen and everyone including the promoter objected to cutting them

-After sound check, she made the crew remove the front fills because "they would kill the audience"

-She then made them put up "side fills for the audience." They could not be the 3 way EAW KF300s that were available, they had to be something "big"

-After the "soundcheck" she posted her body guard behind the monitor desk with orders to not let any of us touch it no matter what. At this point the console was in mute and the send to FOH was off because she kept shutting it off. I had to point this out to her manager in order to get the console turned on for the show.

-We kept moving the FOH feed around the console because she would walk behind the console and start pressing buttons and "turning things off that we were not using because the more things that were on, the more it would drain her power"

-5 minutes late for curtain she freaked out again about how her mic was routed and wanted to "change it." She insisted we should have used a splitter. (Yes, you're right, she originally specified NO SPLITTERS, everything direct.)

-She corrected my sloppy panning settings on the console because "they should all be straight up/center." She was commenting on and changing all the gains.

-Asked that the monitor console be replaced 3 times as the VCAs were junk and it couldn't be trusted. The console was fine and very nice by the way

-Had us take her vocal out of the bands mixes twice

-She was nice enough to shut off some of the amps we "weren't using" including my cue.

-Complained about the Crown amps that were being used for her monitors. The amps were house amps and her wedges were self powered, per her request.

I rode back to the hotel with the backup singers who again apologized profusely and pointed out (in case I didn't already notice) that she is CRAZY.

We are back tomorrow at 3PM to "sort out the sound problems". This is a cruel cruel joke!

<He later wrote:>

After re-reading my dispatch to all of you last night, I realized that it did not even touch on the lunacy of the preceedings.

I had a nice talk with her manager this morning (everyone here has been lovely except for one person in particular). I pointed out that they apparently do not need a monitor engineer and I would be happy to be sent home. He thanked me for coming out and I think that is my 24th apology recieved this trip. We discussed the obvious and he closed with the statement "she is in a lot of pain." Whatever! There are no more flights out today but I am getting out early tomorrow AM. I guess the bodyguard is doing monitors for the 3PM sound check and the show tonight. It certainly isn't going to be me. Thanks for your support and yes I am still getting paid.

JA

Edited April 6, 2003 by jim anderson

[jazzhound]

thanks for sharing...I think.

[Joe G]

Aw, c'mon Jim. Name that Diva! We won't tell!