Conversations with Jim Anderson

[CJ Shearn]

Jim, what's your opinion of studio overdubs inserted into live recordings? I recently got the Japanese reissue of "CTI Summer Jazz At the Hollywood Bowl" on CD, something I've been looking for on disc for years, had the 3 LP set as a kid. For whatever reason, Creed Taylor, in 1977 when the album was released brought in Gary King, Steve Gadd and (I dunno where these were used) Terry Silverlight to overdub parts (engineered by David Palmer) originally played by Jack DeJohnette, Ron Carter (the electric parts only)and Airto. Particularly in the drum parts, there are times during the applause after a tune where you can hear a faint drum roll or cymbal crash from DeJohnette, when you listen in headphones. Steve is masterfully mixed in to the live sound of the recording, there are also points where the drum sound doesn't seem "live" in other words that beefed up, 70's sound. As for Jack, they left him in on some of the swinging tunes like "Cherry" and "Grits Bowl" and for the funk tunes it sounds like they maybe potted him down in the live mix to be inaudible and inserted Gadd's drumming. Are you familiar with this recording? and in general how is the process of inserting studio overdubs into a live recording achieved? Taylor did this for a number of live recordings on his label, including George Benson at Carnegie Hall and Hubert Laws at Carnegie Hall.

[jim anderson]

That's a rare and drastic thing to do and you can hear the reason why.

I worked for Creed on a couple of albums, one of which was live: "Charles Fambrough: Live at Bradley's". That was a live video shoot, too and there were no overdubs. (We were shooting that on the day the World Trade Center was bombed. Some things are hard to forget.)

I can say that if Creed doesn't like something, he'll just go in there and change it. He's writing the check.

Speaking of check, he still owes me for that session! (speaking of hard to forget)

I'm not familiar with the session you're speaking of.

Anyone?

Edited March 11, 2003 by jim anderson

[CJ Shearn]

sounds like Creed to get into debt and leave someone hanging for payment. CTI Summer Jazz At the Hollywood Bowl is a great album regardless of the overdubs, but it was really a bizarre move IMO to overdub such great and capable players as DeJohnette and Carter. I read on Doug Payne's site that Creed wasn't happy with the quality of the masters, thus a reason for overdubs, there are quite a few things that get masked in the mix when the horn/reed section (made up of Hubbard, Turrentine, Washington, Hank Crawford, Hubert Laws, and Joe Farrell) are playing, but wouldn't ya think they'd do something before the tapes were rolling at the Hollywood Bowl to check the levels? the CTI All Star dates, which include the 1971 "California Concert", and previously unreleased bonus tracks on recent CD reissues, generally were rawer recordings (and w/o overdubs), perhaps to capture the energy that would crackle at those concerts, canned live albums or live albums w/ studio overdubs seem a very odd species to me.

[jim anderson]

in a live situation, sometimes the fault isn't with the 'levels', as you say, but with the performers who require too high a level on stage, thereby causing a multitude of problems for all of the audio types involved (recording, front of house mixer, monitor mixer) and really not caring what the problems down the road might be

when that occurs in a live situation, you can listen to each and every individual microphone and all sounds fine, but when you put it together it's all mush

all you can do is to lower the level on stage

[CJ Shearn]

ahh. A track where Jack is left in, like on "Cherry", when he starts hitting the ride cymbal, you can tell he might have required too high a level on stage thus drowning or near drowning other things out. Your explanation definitely makes the reason clearer for why the overdubs may have been needed. Thanks.

Also, when you recorded Carnegie Hall Salutes the Jazz Masters, on "The Eternal Triangle", how did you record Pat Metheny?, it's a different sound than is achieved by Rob Eaton and David Oakes on his own stuff, but it still maintains that airy character. Did you have microphones going to both of his amps on stage, also serving to catch the 14ms/26ms delay settings that he uses? What other occasions have you had working with Pa?, and have you engineered his famous Roland GR300 guitar synth sound before? that's one of the strangest, hippest sounds I've ever heard, absolutely ear piercing live

[Young Buck]

Thanks for the advice, Jim and B-3... Meyer for monitor, you say? Would you recommend them over, say, the Genelec 1030's (about $1500 / pair)?

Also, you concur that RAM is more important then processor speed? That's interesting... I'll keep it in mind. With $2000 for the G4, $2000 for the Pro Tools, and $2000 for monitors, that will be a pretty solid core unit and still leaves $3,300 for gear (mics, pre's, comp's, etc). Then, as we get funding over the next few years, we will build our mic arsonal little by little.

Thanks again for the advice, fellas.

CJ, I'm not sure if your 'into' Frank Zappa, but he has done a lot of studio overdubbing over live material, and did it pretty interestingly as well (check out "Inca Roads" from One Size Fits All...) Also, the Grateful Dead have a live album called Europe '72 which features many overdubs over live, and it sounds amazing (in my 'Young' opinion!). Sorry for straying the conversation away from jazz, but it might be worth checking out...

[jim anderson]

I've used Meyers for 14 years, so I'll vote for them.

As far as the ram vs processor speed, I'll let that conversation go to others. Any takers?

Zappa's album "Roxy and Elsewhere" is a perfect example of how to integrate studio and live elements. It's one of my favorites.

[CJ Shearn]

Young Buck (lol) my friend burned me a copy of "Shut Up And Play Yer Guitar" the second disc I believe. It is a fascinating, weird, amazing display of chops, but it's not really something I'd listen to on a regular basis. No denying Zappa was an incredible musician. The recordings you mention were they done in Frank's Synclavier days?

[Jim Alfredson]

Also, you concur that RAM is more important then processor speed? That's interesting... I'll keep it in mind. With $2000 for the G4, $2000 for the Pro Tools, and $2000 for monitors, that will be a pretty solid core unit and still leaves $3,300 for gear (mics, pre's, comp's, etc). Then, as we get funding over the next few years, we will build our mic arsonal little by little.

I do think RAM is more important. True, with the lower line Pro Tools you use more processor than you would with a full Pro Tools rig, but an 800MHz machine would do the job nicely. Does Pro Tools even take advantage of dual processors? I think only OS X does as an operating system and then it's up to individual software.

Definately check out the MXL mics. And get some good mic preamps. I can't stress enough how important these are.

[jim anderson]

and as of today, os x isn't an option

[Young Buck]

As always, thanks for the advice...much appreciated...

Why is OSX no more?

I will definately check out MXL mics and I plan on getting some good mic pre's, any specific suggestions?

The Zappa album, One Size Fits All, was before his synclavier days... 1975 to be exact. Anyway, the first song, Inca Roads (an amazing song by all rights) has a solo / jam section in the middle where FZ just wails over top of drums, bass, and rhodes. That whole section is from a live show and spliced in the middle of a studio take...flawlessly, I might add. He has done tons of stuff like that...he has put live solos over studio back-up, live tracks from one show over live tracks from another! He has one recording (I can't remember which one) which are two studio sessions where neither session played with the other...meaning, both sessions were completely independant and then matched up! The guy is a genious by all accounts if you ask me...

[jim anderson]

any one can correct me if i'm wrong, but as far as i know pro-tools (as i said, as of today) doesn't run on os x, but on 9.2, etc (hd may be another issue, though)

this was an issue when mac was changing over to os x and may have changed and slipped by me

if this is the case, please clue me in

thanks

ja

ps buck, i think you should start a zappa thread

by the way do you know of the ed palermo big band and their recordings of zappa tunes?

Edited March 13, 2003 by jim anderson

[Jim Alfredson]

I don't know much about mac software, so I'm going to keep my mouth shut! I still stand by my original assessment that a lower line G4 should run fine, however. The studio we recorded our trio record in has a G4 800Mhz machine running the newest Pro Tools (the HD) with all the plugins you can imagine and he has no problems.

For preamps, you can't go wrong with Grace. Of course, they are $$$$$.

I have a Presonus M80 that I like a lot, although I've read they've stopped using the Jensen transformers in them and went to a cheaper (and not as good sounding) alternative. Mine has the original Jensen's in it.

The True Systems Precision 8 is nice. Sounds real good. The Focusrite Red series is awesome.

All I know is that when it comes to preamps, you get what you pay for!

[jim anderson]

my mic preamps of choice are john hardy m-1, which is a 4 channel unit (he has an 8 banger on the way) and my millenia quad

i've asked a couple of friends of mine who've had good luck working with other mic pres to come on board and offer their suggestions

let's see what they offer

[mikeweil]

by the way do you know of the ed palermo big band and their recordings of zappa tunes?

Yeah, that's a great one, and guess who was the engineer?

And yes, a Zappa thread would be nice, I'll leave the honours to Young Buck to initiate it!

Edited March 13, 2003 by mikeweil

[larsrec]

Hi Jim,

I agree that RAM is more important, up to a point. ProTools users who also use their machines loaded with 2 gig of RAM for video editing (FCP and Avid Express) are having problems. I am running the HD2 system on an 800 mghz single processor G4 with 1 gig of RAM with absolutely no problems. Over the past week I upgraded to PT 6.0 which runs on OSX and the whole process was absolutely painless. Waves vers 4.0 now runs on OSX as well. PT 6.0 can use dual processor machines but, for now, there seems to be little practical benefit.

On the subject of mic pres, I love my Precision 8, my Milennia HD-3, and Night Technologies PreQ3 (I believe you and I used all of these along with your Hardy's on Patricia Barber's Companion CD.) The Precision and the Milennia are transformerless and in the straight-wire-with-gain family. The Night Technologies units sound a lot to me like John Hardy's units but unfortunately are no longer made. David Baker swears by the Presonus 8 channel unit. If I were buying new pres I'd be hard-pressed to decide between Hardys, Grace, and/or more channels of Milennia. Cheaper options would be the new Focusrite OctoPre, which reportedly contain the same pres as my Digi Control 24 (usable but not exciting) and the Presonus.

John Larson

[jazzhound]

inquiring minds might want to know why today's engineers carry around preamps instead of using the console's preamp. Are the brands mentioned that much better or is it a matter of being able to bypass the console electronics for a shorter signal path?

[jim anderson]

dear inquiring mind,

interesting that you should ask. the answer is 'd' all of the above

when i'm working in some studios, i've got a console full of classic neve mic pre's. now they have this wonderful round, warm, transformer sound that is teriffic, but, for me, i don't like to impose that sound on some instruments.

round and warm on bass, on some players fpr example, turns to mud.

on some consoles, i just don't like the mic pre's

with outboard pre's i can also get a shorter signal path from the mic to the mic pre. at avatar i have lines in the wall that go from the studio directly to the wall at the back of the control room for my mic pre's.

the hardys i like especially. once you get used to their metering, there's no going back and the sound is especially clean.

also on ribbon mics, due to their low output, you need an extreemly clean 1st stage of amplification.

also with outboard pre's you have the feeling (or can hear the sound) that the mics are getting a real 48 volts.

some consoles try to skimp on that fact (older consoles, especially)

also, i like to 'break up the sound' a bit and not have everything sound alike, with the same

another thing you can do is mix and match the microphone with the preamp with the instrument that you're recording.

to me the hardy is like a b&k (very clean) and the millenia is like a schoeps (a little creamy) and all of these flavors are like a touch of spice added to the recording.

with these ingredients, you find yourself eq'ing less

ps and thanks to larsrec for his comments

Edited March 13, 2003 by jim anderson

[Jim Alfredson]

larsrec,

That's very cool that David Baker likes the Presonus. I respect his work very much and I've always liked my Presonus. Although like I said, I think they changed the transformers and thus the sound.

The Precision 8 is an amazing unit. That will be my next 8-channel pre.

I've not heard of the John Hardy units. Where can I find them?

[larsrec]

John sells the units himself. He is located in Evanston, IL. His number is listed under The John Hardy Company. You can also find his ads in all the major recording magazines.He also sells the best DI in the world, the AMB.

[shawn·m]

Hi Jim,

I've a question about the following quote.

"One big band recording that I did was mastered without my attendance. There was this wonderful A section of the tune played tripple pianissimo and then the whole band played a single note stinger at triple forte. It had punch and a great surprize (sort of like the Mozart Surprize symphony). Now, when the release cd came out, all of the dynamics had been wiped away, leveled out. All of the fun of the arrangement had been wiped away with no sensitivity to the intention."

Were you referring to Joe Henderson’s Big Band? I always thought it was very well recorded, must have been a monster to engineer, too. Just slap my hands if the recording should remain nameless.

Edited March 16, 2003 by kartoffel·hadi blues

[jim anderson]

I'm sorry, but you'll have to consider your hands slapped (and go wash your mouth out with soap, while you're at it, and don't speak with your mouth full, how many times have I told you?, now go to your room, wait till your father gets home).

The Joe Henderson Big Band, is a recording that I'm infinitely proud of and it was a pleasure, all down the line, to work on.

It was mastered by Allan ('just call me Tuck') Tucker of Foothill Digital. Allan was able to maintain the recording's wide dynamic range while not giving up the power of the band. I use the recording in my teaching, as I feel it's a good example of modern big band recording and it's also just great music, amazingly played.

The recording that I alluded to will remain nameless to protect the guilty.

Edited March 16, 2003 by jim anderson

[shawn·m]

Outstanding! This means my audiophile-wanna-be instincts have not yet been corrupted! My knuckles may be red, and my mouth might be the envy of every son’s mother, but I’ll still give you thanks for the SACD player tip from a few months ago. Sure wish I had a little David S Ware in DSD (wink, wink). Now, with the addition of the "Mellow Tone" clue...

[Young Buck]

LarsRec, thank you very much for your advice. Also to Jim...that is a really intelligent idea to use different Pre-amps across the board to individualize the tones...more signs of your expertise...keep 'em comin!

Do you guys recommend ALL Genelec's...ie, are the cheaper ones still pretty good? I'm pretty sure you can get the 1030's for about $1500, are they far less quality then the 1031's, or are they comparible?

Do you guys know anything about Digi 002 Pro Tools system? The specs say 18 I/o's, but only 4 analog mic pre's and 8 direct in's...I guess the other 6 are by Firewire or something (I have to research some more)...does anybody have any experience with this system? Recommend?

ps. I think I will start a FZ thread, that sounds like fun!

[jim anderson]

This is from a conversation that friend, and engineer, David Baker and I have had (many times throughout the years). I thought I'd like to share it with you.

David writes:

"As you know I think it's in the interest of all of us (engineers) to be forthright about how we work. It does not bother me to share anything I might have learned along the way. (Unlike RVG)

The bigger question of how the music is served by our packaging techniques is the issue. <At the AES Convention> I've presented engineers of varying styles from the Greene brothers, Swedien, Schmidt, Massenburg, Kramer, and many so many others, in their presentations: THEY ALL HAVE SOMETHING OF VALUE TO COMMUNICATE!

In the end, if the product is musical and in any way satisfying, then we have done our job. With the proliferation of so many formats and the plethora of available equipment choices sometimes a lack of familiarity with the tools plagues the equipment buying public. Gear is sold or traded often before the owner/operator has exhausted the potential of the given products.

It's been said many times over and I'll agree, if it's number one with a

bullet, no cares what the vocal chain was... (save for a small group of

fledgling engineers.)

The old Brownie/Nikon analogy holds true and can be updated: Give an 11 Mega pixel digital camera to an amateur and a 3 Mega pixel to a pro. The

professional will give you better picture.

Having said this, I'd rather have better equipment in use at all recording

events. So much of the jazz scene is just too low budget and it's difficult

to maintain the integrity of one's sonic footprint with sub-par gear.

Larsrec is right about the early Presonus units being superior in sound

quality with the Jensen's etc....As you know, garbage in, garbage out... So then I've gotten rave audiophile reviews on live stuff that was done on all Mackie and vise versa, music that just wasn't happening that was recorded with 'high end ' preamps has fallen by the way side.

Such is the case with the Lavano live at The Vanguard. A real Dixie cup affair, with a stock old style 1604 direct to DAT. The music is great and people love it. I did not add the pre-amps to the rig until 1999.

Same setup for Abdullah Ibraham Trio at Basil another Stereophile sound

pick. If they only knew... One of the best sounding is in fact a recent session at The Jazz Standard. You were there on the first night and I'm sure that based on what you remember this claim seems absurd . Anyway we transferred the 24bit Presonus /Tascam material to Pro-Tools HD and mucho DSP, back down through Neve analog and Voilé!"

I agree with David on this.

I just finished working with a singer at Avatar and due to too many reasons, we had to do the project directly to Pro-Tools (regular and not HD). The material sounded great! It was wonderful musicians playing teriffic music and really who cares how it was done? (I made the comment to the producer that had others used pro-tools the way we were-which was with a very light hand-it might not have the bad rep that it has in some circles)

I thank him for his comments and hope he'll be back here, soon.

JA