How Many Geniuses in Jazz?

[fasstrack]

Did you know Bix and Jelly Roll too?

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[fasstrack]

42

You have my vote for the best, funniest, and especially the putting-this-s$%t-in-perspective answer. :rsmile:

[BruceH]

Do you think that jazz attracts more than its share of geniuses, as opposed to, say country, opera or architecture? If so, why?

No. If they were that smart, they'd find paying gigs...

Two different kinds of intelligence at work.

[AllenLowe]

nah, if they were smart, they wouldn't be musicians -

[danasgoodstuff]

I think there's also collaborative genius where the individuals on their own are merely alright but together (and only together) the're exploring/mapping the future, or whatever you want to call it. Examples? Tristano/Konitz/Marsh? Bill Monroe & Earl Scruggs? the 2nd Quintet? Maaybe I've just painted myself into a(n interesting) cornewr...?

[BeBop]

Collective geniuses. Yes. (Actually, I'd posted, then deleted, something about this.) Nominees: Basie Rhythm section and Miles' Quintets/Sextets

[AllenLowe]

ellington band - mingus's early bands -

[Brownian Motion]

The real question is not how many geniuses, but rather how many giants.

[AllenLowe]

well, that leaves out Johnny Griffin and Roy Eldridge -

[Brownian Motion]

I'd argue that any musician who leaves behind a distinctive body of recorded work that later generations of musicians continue to relate to and draw inspiration from deserves to be branded a jazz genius.

By this measure Django Reinhardt and Louis Armstrong are the most influential of early jazz masters, with Bix in the mix as well.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Brownian Motion

[fasstrack]

nah, if they were smart, they wouldn't be musicians -

Guess Allen really does play.......he knows what's up and had damn good timing with that line.

[BeBop]

Middle of the night rumination:

Let's say Person X is a genius. Since (s)he's a jazz genius, we'll refer to Person X as "Sonny" X.

Me? I'm no genius. So:

1. Am I in a position to judge Sonny X's genius?

2. Regardless to the answer to Q1, will I recognize Sonny X's genius?

3. Despite the genius, might I (and others l like me) hate Sonny X's music?

Going a step beyond...what does this have to do with the general public's failure to embrace jazz, even as practiced by a generally recognized genius. So what does being a genius get you?

Back to bed now, Bebop.

[jeffcrom]

I'm grateful that I discovered this forum. Here is Allen on Dave Schildkraut back in March:

But listen, on the song Footnotes, as I may have already mentioned, to his solo. I have never, in my life, heard a more rhythmically complex solo. His brilliance is maybe more subtle than some, as he played with an incredible sense of forward harmonic and rhythmic momentum - but I have no doubt he was one of the greats -

I thought this had to be an exaggeration. But I tracked down a copy of Handyland U.S.A. and listened to it today. And I've got to say that Schildkraut is great throughout, but absolutely brilliant on "Footnotes" and several other tracks, like "Recoil" and "Pegasus." Like so many discoveries we make, it was right there waiting for me if I had known. The album as a whole is excellent, but Schildkraut is on another level. Thanks for this thread, BeBop, and for your posts, Allen.

Edited May 12, 2009 by jeffcrom

[paul secor]

I'd argue that any musician who leaves behind a distinctive body of recorded work that later generations of musicians continue to relate to and draw inspiration from deserves to be branded a jazz genius.

By this measure Django Reinhardt and Louis Armstrong are the most influential of early jazz masters, with Bix in the mix as well.

Just saw this post. Sure you don't want to rethink it?

[Shrdlu]

Why not limit it to the guys who really had a major influence on jazz?

So, it's easy then: Louis Armstrong, Bird, Miles, Trane and so on.

And for my money, Bird was the greatest improviser of them all - no-one even close.

This is not to say that many other players are not geniuses. But there are not a lot of major influences, and dear old Davey Schildkraut, no matter what the IQ, or how good he sounded, was not an influence.

(By the way, to correct a statement above, Paul Desmond came out of the bop era and also didn't copy Bird.)

[Guest Bill Barton]

I agree with the choice of most of the musicians "nominated" so far, particularly Jaki Byard and Cecil Taylor.

And I'd add Joe Harriott, Don Ellis, Pee Wee Russell and Henry "Red" Allen to the list.

EDIT: Oh, and Warne Marsh too (with or without Tristano.)

For me, "genius" doesn't necessarily equate with being widely appreciated or influential.

Edited May 14, 2009 by Bill Barton

[7/4]

For me, "genius" doesn't necessarily equate with being widely appreciated or influential.

I agree.

.

[JSngry]

I prefer to think of "genius" as the creation, not the creator.

And I still do.

[P.L.M]

Funny (?) that nobody prononced the name of JIMMY GIUFFRE yet.