How Many Geniuses in Jazz?

[BeBop]

The term "genius" gets used quite a bit. Too casually, in my opinion, but that's just me. So this poll is more about the term "genius" than it is about jazz. But jazz gives a frame of reference.

Do you think that jazz attracts more than its share of geniuses, as opposed to, say country, opera or architecture? If so, why?

Edited March 25, 2009 by BeBop

[AllenLowe]

can only speak of the ones I've known: Dave Schildkraut, Jaki Byard. Probably Julius Hemphill.

Edited March 25, 2009 by AllenLowe

[clifford_thornton]

How are you measuring the concept of "genius?"

I think one has to be pretty bright to even play this music and there are certainly a ton who play - or have played - it well. "Genius" is, to me, like "success" or "value" in that much of the concept can only be applied after someone's work till the day they die can be assessed in terms of influence, etc.

Braxton will be a genius, Bill Dixon too. Cecil. Roscoe. Many...

[Christiern]

Unless we are talking about legendary geniuses, I'm not playing.

[carnivore]

The term "genius" gets used quite a bit. Too casually, in my opinion, but that's just me. So this poll is more about the term "genius" than it is about jazz. But jazz gives a frame of reference.

Do you think that jazz attracts more than its share of geniuses, as opposed to, say country, opera or architecture? If so, why?

I don't have an opinion vis a vis other art forms but would use the term sparingly, given its generally accepted meaning. Thus the only 'geniuses' of the tenor sax, from the points of view of creativity, originality, influence and technique would be Hawk, Prez, Getz and Trane. Which is not to denigrate the talents of many others, by any means.

[fasstrack]

can only speak of the ones I've known: Dave Schildkraut, Jaki Byard. Probably Julius Hemphill.

I just mention Jaki in that other thread and I agree.

Davey Schildkraut: I grew up with his nephew, Alan, who as Alan Childs has been a successful touring drummer with top rock acts and shows and road rat. Davey I met in, of all places, the Cortelyou St. branch of the Brooklyn Public Library. He was talking to some kids doing homework around a circular table and they thought he was nuts. When he saw I had a book on Prez he started talking to me. Luckily for him, I'm equally nuts and I talked back. It didn't take long to find out who he was (I asked) and we did have the connection of Alan besides our association with jazz. We had a nice hang and I wound up driving him home. I asked him about playing on Solar and he said Miles just sang it to him and he learned it on the spot. Then I heard that he died and how, and it was horrible. He also had tragedy while alive, with a daughter dying in a terrible way. Don't know if he was a genius based on meeting him. I doubt it. He sure was a hell of a great player, though. I remember a guy saying he was the best musician he ever met coming out of Local 802.

[danasgoodstuff]

I thought we were all geniuses in jazz, that's why I came here.

[BeBop]

New poll idea: "How Many Geniuses at the Organissimo Forums?" Heck, "How Many Geniuses in Organissimo?"

You're right. I didn't define "genius". My purpose was to let everyone provide his/her own definition - either indirectly, by choosing something from the poll, or directly, by posting a definition.

I suggested that I though many folks (e.g., reviewers, obituary writers) were using a broader definition than I do. That's fine. If I know that someone sees "genius" everywhere (or thinks every record deserves four-and-a-half stars), I can deal with it. The key is knowing. But I'm NOT evaluating anyone. Ain't no right or wrong.

[jazzbo]

I voted one to six in both categories.

[AllenLowe]

Davey definitely qualified - picking up the horn about once a year and sounding better than anyone - and a few quotes:

"Dave was one of the greatest saxophonists I ever heard" -Stan Getz

"The only saxophonist who caught the rhythmic essence of Bird was Dave Schildkraut" - Dizzy Gillespie

"There were only two saxophonists who came out of bebop who didn't copy Bird - Lee Konitz and Dave Schilldkraut" - Bill Evans

"He had more soul than any horn player I ever heard" - Art Pepper

"He was one of my favorite players" - Jackie McCLean

not bad for a guy who played in public, relatively speaking, for about 20 minutes total -

Edited March 25, 2009 by AllenLowe

[fasstrack]

not bad for a guy who played in public, relatively speaking, for about 20 minutes total -

Not true. He played club dates for years. He had a civil service job after that, but still played. I heard his daughter died after tripping on stairs. Very sad. Someone said it took a lot of pain for him to end up the way he did at the end, and I believe him. He was very nice and coherent and had kept his sense of humor, but was definitely the worse for wear, sorry to report. He looked a little off and smelled like a bag person---he actually had a shopping bag with him---and the place I dropped him off was a funky and possibly dangerous project in Coney Island. I'm glad I got to meet him once, though.

[fasstrack]

Heck, "How Many Geniuses in Organissimo?"

You mean besides me?

Someone hadda, may as well be me...............

[AllenLowe]

actually the daughter died in a car accident, in an auto driven by a boyfriend that Dave and his wife had been worried about. After this Gloria (his wife) took to bed and never got out. Dave played club dates over many years (I went to a Bar Mitzvah he did at the Oriental in Brooklyn) but only sporadically - we were pretty close friends for a while, from about 1976, I knew his wife and sons - though I did not see him after about 1992, as he got increasingly paranoid and accusatory. A while after his wife died he moved to Coney Island (he had lived close to the Belt Parkway, I used to go there but cannot remember the address) -

my point was that, relative to what could have been quite a jazz career (and Triglia told me that even Bird praised Dave but told Triglia that he predicted Dave would walk away from it all; "it's hard for a white man do do what Dave wants to do" Bird said, interestingly enough) he did very little, started doing only weddings, even turned down an offer from Norman Granz to go on tour with that whole unit (and Granz also wanted to record him with strings). I had a very long talk with Bill Evans one night about Dave, and he was bewildered by Dave's desire to walk away from it all. AS was Mel Lewis. Mel, who was begruding in general with praise, just shook his head and said "wow, Dave Schildkraut" when I brought Dave up on a job I did with him in Connecticut. And even Lester Young came over from Birdland one night to hear Dave play for a strip show near the club, and invited him to sit in with him back at Birdland. Dave of course turned him down -

Edited March 25, 2009 by AllenLowe

[fasstrack]

actually she died in a car accident - he played club dates over many years but only sporadically - we were pretty close friends for a while, I knew his wife and sons - though I did not see him after about 1992, as he got increasingly paranoid and accusatory. A while after his wife died he moved to Coney Island (he had lived close to the Belt Parkway, I used to go there but cannot remember the address) -

my point was that, relative to what could have been quite a jazz career (and Triglia told me that even Bird praised him but told Triglia that he predicted Dave would walk away from it all) he did very little, started doing only weddings, even turned down an offer from Norman Granz to go on tour with that whole unit (and Granz also wanted to record him with strings). I had a very long talk with Bill Evans one night about Dave, and he was bewildered by Dave's desire to walk away from it all. AS was Mel Lewis. Mel, who was begruding in general with praise, just shook his head and said "wow, Dave Schildkraut" when I brought Dave up on a job I did with him in Connecticut -

You knew Bill Triglia? Is he still around? Great guy. He and Eddie Diehl called me one night totally zonked. I was living at home and those crazy greasy MFs woke my dad up like 3 AM. They were listening to a recording Eddie and I made and digging it.....

Not everyone can have a jazz career, Allen. It's just not in the cards for some, not a good fit personality-wise, etc. It doesn't mean you forget music or have less value or can't play well anymore. The music biz, and especially the jazz biz, are pieces of $%%& and eat sensitive souls and true artists like Davey or---among countless others---my friend the late Chris Anderson and others alive. It did a hell of a job on me, I know---not that I compare myself to Davey or Chris.

The point is it doesn't matter who praised you. There's room only at the top in jazz, and mostly for those with hearts like steel traps. Real artists do what they can when they can---unless they are being kept afloat financially by others or very, very lucky. Davey had to survive and there's almost no way to do that in jazz. I know what he could do, that's not the point. I'd almost bet my left testicle that he walked away from the big time b/c he was burned before. I just have known too many cats like him not to believe that was at least part of it.

But please don't think that b/c a guy walks away from the pain and privation of a screwed-up business that he forgot or slacked off on the art. I seriously doubt that happened in this case.

Edited March 25, 2009 by fasstrack

[AllenLowe]

well, yes and no - too complicated a discussion for this thread. I only wanted to point out that he was a true genius, and there have been few like him, to be regarded by Getz/Lewis/Evans/McClean/Bird/Young/Gillespie as a major player, so I think he qualifies (another of his fans was Ralph Burns). I have heard Dave play phrases that were other-worldy. Scary guy.

Triglia I have not spoken to in some time, though he think he's still alive (he would be 85, I think). This is a good reminder for me to call him.

Edited March 25, 2009 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

to get back to the genius thing, Jaki Byard truly qualifies as well - he was playing "outside" music in the early 1950s in Boston, could do anything, work with anyone. Always ahead of the rest -

[fasstrack]

well, yes and no - too complicated a discussion for this thread. I only wanted to point out that he was a true genius, and there have been few like him, to be regarded by Getz/Lewis/Evans/McClean/Bird/Young/Gillespie as a major player, so I think he qualifies (another of his fans was Ralph Burns). I have heard Dave play phrases that were other-worldy. Scary guy.

Triglia I have not spoken to in some time, though he think he's still alive (he would be 85, I think). This is a good reminder for me to call him.

Maybe it is too complicated---but it sure as hell should be brought up somewhere, since musicians are catching hell all over. I'd like to hear someone say something that reminds me to keep my faith b/c I really want to. But I know that if you want to play you do. If it's 'under the radar', who cares? As long as it has some use for somebody else, b/c everyone needs to hear music (and I don't believe mere self-satisfaction to be the be-all and end-all, but rather a curse on jazz, and self-inflicted. I know, that's definitely another topic for another day).

On another pont: I personally shy away from quoting other players on someone's worth, even if they are giants. Certainly you respect the opinions of your heroes, but in the end it comes down to taste---hugely personal---and living your own life through your own ears. To give a particularly annoying example (not that you're doing this): though I love Barry Harris as a musician and social force in this music, and he has helped me personally over many years, he teaches a class in NY. There is much to e gotten from it, but his sychophantic students drive me nuts with 'Barry says this, Barry says that'....Does Barry hold their wee-wees when they pee?

In the end every tub stands on its own bottom---an old saying in jazz.

Edited March 25, 2009 by fasstrack

[AllenLowe]

understood - but that's a bit different from several of the major figures of post-War jazz all telling you that a single musician is one of the greatest they've ever heard -

Edited March 25, 2009 by AllenLowe

[7/4]

This one is a bit of a challenge. Usually we just discuss how many fucking idiots there are.

[BeBop]

I know I've got some Schildkraut on LP (Honeydew label?) and I've got probably all of the w/Miles' stuff, also on LP.

Now I want to hear it...but my LPs are about a million miles away. So, next time I'm reunited with those LPs (June?), I'll have to digitize them and load them onto my MP3 player; I'll only have about a day for this, before I'm back on the road.

The question: are the Miles' and the Honeydews good samples of his work, or should I be looking elsewhere? (I'm frankly not sure what else I might have; these are what I remember.)

[BeBop]

This one is a bit of a challenge. Usually we just discuss how many fucking idiots there are.

Idiots, count off.

"One"

[John L]

"Genius" is best understood as a multidimensional concept that can exist in different people in different ways and in various degrees. The idea of dividing all people into simple genius-not genius categories is rather empty, in my view.

[AllenLowe]

Davey, as he told me, was a bit uncomfortable on the Miles date, because Weinstock was riding him about working with Kenton (it wasn't hip among the beboppers) and so he tried to wing it without taking enough time to really learn the tunes, just to show Weinstock he could play - he's brilliant, however, on the two Honeydews, which allow him to stretch out - I also recorded him in 1978, and he sounds incredible at times - would also recommend the two George Handy dates (now on Fresh Sound); there's some amazing stuff there -

there's also a good Ralph Burns date though, as Triglia told me, Dave was mad about something or other and played intentionally out of tune (though Burns still voted for him in the Encyclopedia of Jazz poll as his favorite alto after Bird) -

I want to add, also, that Coltrane was also an admirer of Dave - not a bad fan club, all in all, to have - Trane and Jackie Mclean, Stan Getz and Bill Evans and Dizzy Gillespie -

Edited March 25, 2009 by AllenLowe

[BillF]

In my youth, authorities on jazz usually accorded the title "genius" to Armstrong, Ellington and Parker. That still seems pretty sound to me.

[AllenLowe]

well, there's more - let us not forget Bix Beiderbecke - true genius, as was Jelly Roll Morton.