Is this a bootleg release of Sonny Rollins in Stuttgart?

[Swinging Swede]

Was this thread deleted for a while yesterday? Suddenly I couldn't see it in the list, and when I tried to reload its URL I got a board message that it didn't exist or similar. Cool that deleted threads can be brought back, if so.

[djcavanagh]

I can fully understand the Board's position and I think that it is the right one from the point of view of protecting the Board from any legal ramifications but am I the only one that thinks it is perverse that it is ok for people to know where to buy bootlegs from people who are profiting from them (presumably with no recompense to the musicians (do the composers get royalties?)) but it isnt ok to know where you can download them without people in Andorra profiting from essentially ripping cds?

Again I'm not questioning the position but I'm a bit uncomfortable. It is a bit like the UK jazz magazines that review the Gambit, Lone Hill cds etc (without mentioning that there may be legitimate versions available - one review I read recently even highlighted that the bootleg was the better bet as it was cheaper than the legit version!) but wouldn't dream of providing details of where you could download the same recordings for free.

Another thought, which I'm sure has been covered elsewhere but is it illegal to download albums older than 50 years in Europe?

[clifford_thornton]

The laws are knotty enough that places like Dusty Groove aren't going to be shut down for selling Andorran CDs or even discs of dubious provenance offered for sale in the US. I think that with the board and its stance, ethics are in play more than law.

[J.A.W.]

The laws are knotty enough that places like Dusty Groove aren't going to be shut down for selling Andorran CDs or even discs of dubious provenance offered for sale in the US. I think that with the board and its stance, ethics are in play more than law.

I read on another forum that Dusty Groove stopped selling Andorran CDs and the like because they had struck some kind of deal with Universal. I don't have any details, though. Does anyone know more?

Edited March 24, 2009 by J.A.W.

[Bill B]

I can fully understand the Board's position and I think that it is the right one from the point of view of protecting the Board from any legal ramifications but am I the only one that thinks it is perverse that it is ok for people to know where to buy bootlegs from people who are profiting from them (presumably with no recompense to the musicians (do the composers get royalties?)) but it isnt ok to know where you can download them without people in Andorra profiting from essentially ripping cds?

Again I'm not questioning the position but I'm a bit uncomfortable. It is a bit like the UK jazz magazines that review the Gambit, Lone Hill cds etc (without mentioning that there may be legitimate versions available - one review I read recently even highlighted that the bootleg was the better bet as it was cheaper than the legit version!) but wouldn't dream of providing details of where you could download the same recordings for free.

Another thought, which I'm sure has been covered elsewhere but is it illegal to download albums older than 50 years in Europe?

Older than 50 years ???????????????

[JSngry]

The laws are knotty enough that places like Dusty Groove aren't going to be shut down for selling Andorran CDs or even discs of dubious provenance offered for sale in the US. I think that with the board and its stance, ethics are in play more than law.

I read on another forum that Dusty Groove stopped selling Andorran CDs and the like because they had struck some kind of deal with Universal. I don't have any details, though. Does anyone know more?

What does searching for "gambit" brings up? Nothing. http://www.dustygroove.com/browse.php?kwfi...1&incl_cs=1

[djcavanagh]

The laws are knotty enough that places like Dusty Groove aren't going to be shut down for selling Andorran CDs or even discs of dubious provenance offered for sale in the US. I think that with the board and its stance, ethics are in play more than law.

That gets back to my question then - is it more ethical to link to a bootleg cd where the artists are not being paid royalties but someone is profiting (and these cds are often not budget priced) than to link to somewhere where you can download same recording for free.

Note that I don't think that either is ethical particularly but I have some trouble with the logic.

[djcavanagh]

I can fully understand the Board's position and I think that it is the right one from the point of view of protecting the Board from any legal ramifications but am I the only one that thinks it is perverse that it is ok for people to know where to buy bootlegs from people who are profiting from them (presumably with no recompense to the musicians (do the composers get royalties?)) but it isnt ok to know where you can download them without people in Andorra profiting from essentially ripping cds?

Again I'm not questioning the position but I'm a bit uncomfortable. It is a bit like the UK jazz magazines that review the Gambit, Lone Hill cds etc (without mentioning that there may be legitimate versions available - one review I read recently even highlighted that the bootleg was the better bet as it was cheaper than the legit version!) but wouldn't dream of providing details of where you could download the same recordings for free.

Another thought, which I'm sure has been covered elsewhere but is it illegal to download albums older than 50 years in Europe?

Older than 50 years ???????????????

More than 50 years old then - I think that it was clear enough what I meant. Unless I have misunderstood your ???????????????

[Cliff Englewood]

I don't mind discussion of bootlegs, just no trading or direct links to them.

I do mind discussions of mp3s and sites like that.

This is what I thought, there are loads of threads on these types releases, why this is suddenly an issue for some people is quite strange.

I actually had this one and sold it to someone on the Board fairly recently. To be honest I didn't think it was that good really, they sound very, very loose, to the point of being sloppy.

I made a mistake here, I had the Paris bootleg not the Stuttgart one, they confused me by using the same covers, kinda anyway.

[bluesbro]

Again, has anyone heard the Stutgart date? How is the sound quality? I have the Paris one on Gambit and it is incredible!

[Tom Storer]

The laws are knotty enough that places like Dusty Groove aren't going to be shut down for selling Andorran CDs or even discs of dubious provenance offered for sale in the US. I think that with the board and its stance, ethics are in play more than law.

That gets back to my question then - is it more ethical to link to a bootleg cd where the artists are not being paid royalties but someone is profiting (and these cds are often not budget priced) than to link to somewhere where you can download same recording for free.

Note that I don't think that either is ethical particularly but I have some trouble with the logic.

I think you have a point, DJ, but I guess something about bootleg CDs being physical objects offered for sale by actual (if shady) companies makes them grudgingly allowed as "discographical" whereas the exact same recordings transferred online are way off limits. They're every bit as illicit when downloaded, but unlike the bootleg CDs they are generating no unearned profit for anyone. It seems more logical to do it the other way around, BWTFDIK?

As for copyright periods being longer in the US, that doesn't seem in itself like a good reason to shun certain European issues, such as the exemplary Classics or "Trésors du Jazz" series in France. After all, the board has an international membership. There are of course other issues that can come into play, such as reissues that steal other labels' recordings wholesale rather than doing their own mastering. But not all European reissues are by shoddy, unethical thieves.

[Ken Dryden]

One thing Rollins did when Harkit started selling his live performances was to copy them and sell them as downloads on his own website. That's one way to beat the thieves, as Frank Zappa did with his two "Beat the Boots" boxed sets.

European copyright law may be different, but it is still a form of legalized theft, the way I see it.

Sort of like the eminent domain abuse approved in the infamous Kelo vs. the City of New London Supreme Court decision, where the five pinheads couldn't comprehend the value of private property.

[captainwrong]

One thing Rollins did when Harkit started selling his live performances was to copy them and sell them as downloads on his own website. That's one way to beat the thieves, as Frank Zappa did with his two "Beat the Boots" boxed sets.

That's a pretty clever solution.

[Gheorghe]

Again, has anyone heard the Stutgart date? How is the sound quality? I have the Paris one on Gambit and it is incredible!

I had purchased that Stuttgart-LP during the 70s. It was in the record store and seemed interesting to me. The personnel is the same like on the now available Paris CD (Sonny Rollins, Don Cherry, Henry Grimes and Billy Higgins). There are two long tunes (each more than 20 minutes): On Green Dolphin Street , and Sonny Moon For Two, and a very short 52´nd Street Theme. I don´t know the name of the lable, but it´s not important. Anyway it looked cheap and was cheap.

The sound quality is quite the same like on the Paris CD, maybe a little worse, but if you are a freak of historic live recordings, purchasing all the stuff somebody recorded from Bird etc., bad sound quality don´t bother you.

I must admit, during that time I was still a youngster, I didn´t even k n o w there´s something like bootleg recordings, I didn´t even know the word or the meaning of it. My opinion was - if something round with a hole in the middle and jazz on it is in the stores, it´s for sale and I´d better get it, if it´s some musician I admire.

That strange label was concentrating on live recordings done in Europe during the 60s. I haven´t seen many of them: A "Mingus at Stuttgart" (I think it was a double album), and a very interesting LP with "Max Roach Quintet" on side A , and "Sonny Rollins Trio" on side B, recorded at Graz (Austria!) in "1963" (with must be a mistake, since Rollins and Roach were in Graz in 1966.

I can´t play the mentions Stuttgart LP. Since I remembered that music and at my age you like to listen to stuff you did when you were young, I purchased the Paris LP with about the same kind of music, even the same tunes.

[clifford_thornton]

I had the Stuttgart LP - got it cheap, maybe $5 sealed years ago. I remember thinking the sound quality was pretty weak at the time.