Funny Rat

[ep1str0phy]

Yeah that's what I meant. It's interesting to see where he pops up--and to great effect, too (have yet to hear a session of his--leader or sideman, outside of the AEC--that I don't like). Akanalog brought up the Bluiett twofer as an AOW a while back--that one scorches.

[Guest akanalog]

i just recently relistened to the bluiett on bs/sn "resolution", which has moye and billy hart in tandem.

it is also excellent, IMO.

[Guest akanalog]

speaking of which, cliff, i know you said you don't like "black paladins" (jarman/dyani/moye). why not?

[P.L.M]

speaking of which, cliff, i know you said you don't like "black paladins" (jarman/dyani/moye). why not?

Remember that I didn't like it either.

I should give a listen to it, just for remember WHY.

Edited October 12, 2006 by P.L.M

[P.L.M]

There is no point in keeping the thread up just for the sake of it. I don't think this was ever the point - to have it stuck at the top permanently; nobody who used to post here really cared about that. Go for it, if you have anything to discuss that fits here. Currently I don't. When/if I do, I'll be back.

Hope everything thing are okay with you DAVID.

Let us know.

[clifford_thornton]

speaking of which, cliff, i know you said you don't like "black paladins" (jarman/dyani/moye). why not?

Jarman.

[Guest akanalog]

epistro-i am surprised sort of you said that about the UMS. there are other labels i feel sometimes seem to release stuff just to release it (the fact something hasn't been released before sometimes means it isn't worth releasing!) and i often expect to feel this way about UMS albums, but they generally surprise me with their quality. right now for instance i am listening to joe mcphee's "underground railroad" which is a lot better than i expected. i haven't explored a lot of the random 70s and 80s euro stuff, though.

cuneiform, for instance, i feel releases material that shouldn't have seen the light of day or otherwise i can't believe nothing similar but better (like in the case of the graham collier live sets) couldn't have been found.

[clifford_thornton]

I'd agree on disc 2 of the Collier, but disc 1 blows my mind...

I've been pretty impressed with Cuneiform. They have an aesthetic and stick to it, and I can't say I haven't learned a lot from their liner writers, in addition to the music they've put out. Now, if they could just do a BOB live box set...

I generally like UMS too, though "unheard" is often pretty debatable - some of those aren't in the least bit rare, though I suppose they weren't on CD before. I'm wracking my brain trying to think of a reissue in Cuneiform's catalog comparable to the circle-jerk that is Starship Beer, however... Corbs will never be able to live that one down, as much as I like the guy.

[ep1str0phy]

Naw, it's not so much the music--which is almost uniformly worthwhile--as it is various aspects of the presentation. Not all of this is Atavistic's fault--we have deteriorating tape, poor recording, etc.

At the same time, the UMS hits some high peaks (I've been thrilled by the reissues of Pleasure, the GUO, Brotz, McPhee...) and certainly throws in a few oddballs (e.g., the Tiegel album--good as it is--the excellent, if horrendously recorded Lacy mixes that have been surfacing, and the second Luther Thomas UMS, which was totally unexpected). The UMS tends to oscillate between lost classics and esoterica/zaniness, which is where the opinions of fellow board members can come in handy...

Now, rights issues notwithstanding, there are a lot of classic, seldom-heard albums that I'd like to see meet the light of day (again): Babi Music, Black Ark, The Sun is Coming Up, the non-Ogun Blue Notes member albums, the Dixon-Shepp Quartet on Savoy, the Marzette Watts album on Savoy... but those are 'UM' of a different sort.

By the way--has anyone noticed just how much of Thurston Moore's 'Free Jazz Underground' list has gotten reissued?

Off to rehearse and (probably) buy some Otomo Yoshihide...

Edited October 13, 2006 by ep1str0phy

[clifford_thornton]

They've been leaving off the liner notes on a bunch of the UMS titles lately. If it's "Unheard," then give people some context already!

There is a lot of the Thurston list that has yet to see the proper light of day - the Colbeck, for example, really needs to be on CD. It's one of the best jazz records in existence...

[Guest akanalog]

moore sounded like a real douchebag when he wrote that but i imagine it worked well for his audience (the younger kids) and got some people interested in free avante shit who otherwise would not have checked it out.

that second luther thomas is a good one? banana, i mean. i like funky donkey or whatever it is called a lot.

does anyone know what happened to charles bobo shaw? he seems to have disappeared.

i like most everything i have heard him on. he had his own ideas about "fusion".

[ep1str0phy]

Just got a copy of Khan Jamal's Drumdance to the Motherland (I know there was some talk about this one a while ago). It's as spacy and edgy as everyone says (and quite melodic, too).

Don't know about Shaw (although I'm also a fan), but Banana is, apparently, not quite the scorcher that Donkey is.

[clifford_thornton]

Just got a copy of Khan Jamal's Drumdance to the Motherland (I know there was some talk about this one a while ago). It's as spacy and edgy as everyone says (and quite melodic, too).

Don't know about Shaw (although I'm also a fan), but Banana is, apparently, not quite the scorcher that Donkey is.

Yeah, that Jamal is sick...

I was under the impression that Charles Shaw had passed away. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Re: Moore: He wrote that in the mid '90s IIRC, when NONE of that shit was findable with any ease on LP, and the AUM Fidelity/Homestead crowd was just getting outside recognition. It was originally published (hyper-edited) in Grand Royal Magazine, the Beastie Boys' hipster rag, and I guarantee you almost no one in the Grand Royal subscribing audience had ever even heard/thought much about free jazz. Moore is hit-or-miss and comes off somewhat snobby, but hey, at least he was throwing it out there when not many other dudes were.

[ep1str0phy]

I haven't been on the scene long enough to know whether or not the price escalation for stuff like Alabama Feeling and Black Ark preceded or followed the canonizing practices of the free jazz community. I mean, as much as I love Arthur Doyle, I'd have to contend that the gushing superlative of cats like Moore and Rudolph Grey was what got him where is in the 'pantheon,' so to speak.

[clifford_thornton]

I mean, they made probably about 1000 of the Doyle Ak-Ba - it's not THAT rare. Still, one might be hard pressed to come by it pre-eBay. Of course, back then, it would've been $10! Underground records have always been collectible though, whatever the genre.

Doyle was an underground hero back in the early '80s, though I don't think the regular jazz community even knew who he was. Most of 'em still don't; to put it in perspective, the one time I saw Doyle live was opposite the Dream Action Unit (Flaherty/Corsano/Moore).

[Chuck Nessa]

Doyle was an underground hero back in the early '80s, though I don't think the regular jazz community even knew who he was. Most of 'em still don't; to put it in perspective, the one time I saw Doyle live was opposite the Dream Action Unit (Flaherty/Corsano/Moore).

Back in the'80s Doyle was a "nothing". Charles Tyler was giving the records away. That's how I got mine. Doubt if there were more than 500 pressed - more likely 300.

[ep1str0phy]

Note to FR people: Selwyn Lissack is playing DMG on December 12th... too bad I'm in Berkeley. Maybe we'll get that album reissued, sooner or later...

[clifford_thornton]

Doyle was an underground hero back in the early '80s, though I don't think the regular jazz community even knew who he was. Most of 'em still don't; to put it in perspective, the one time I saw Doyle live was opposite the Dream Action Unit (Flaherty/Corsano/Moore).

Back in the'80s Doyle was a "nothing". Charles Tyler was giving the records away. That's how I got mine. Doubt if there were more than 500 pressed - more likely 300.

That few, eh? I thought I'd read "somewhere" that there were 1000 each of the Tylers and the Doyle, though I feel like I've seen the Doyle way more than either of CT's titles.

Must be the circles I run in, which are strange and occupy one corner of the living room...

Edited October 18, 2006 by clifford_thornton

[clifford_thornton]

Note to FR people: Selwyn Lissack is playing DMG on December 12th... too bad I'm in Berkeley. Maybe we'll get that album reissued, sooner or later...

Thought DMG had botched the reissue and it wasn't coming out. I hope this is a change in the air for that unfairly neglected Goody record...

[Д.Д.]

Da Musik / Black Lion is reissuing Cecil Taylor's solo Indent in 24-bit. This is one of Cecil's best solo records, IMO, and DA Musik is doing a good job with remastering (they did Cecil's Silent Tonguges in 2000).

[ep1str0phy]

I'm familiar with those garish looking 1201 reissues--is this the same program? (they did Silent Tongues...). If so, I'm surprised (and glad) to hear that the program is still up and running. As for solo Cecil, I'm fond of Air Above Mountains myself...

[Д.Д.]

Da Musik / Black Lion is reissuing Cecil Taylor's solo Indent in 24-bit. This is one of Cecil's best solo records, IMO, and DA Musik is doing a good job with remastering (they did Cecil's Silent Tonguges in 2000).

I'm familiar with those garish looking 1201 reissues--is this the same program? (they did Silent Tongues...). If so, I'm surprised (and glad) to hear that the program is still up and running. As for solo Cecil, I'm fond of Air Above Mountains myself...

I think 1201 licensed them from DA Musik for US distribution.

"Air..." is good, for sure.

[king ubu]

I think DA Musik is the owner of the Black Lion/Freedom catalogue... I haven't seen any other than 1201 editions of "Silent Tongues", David, I think these are the same ones being sold here.

There's also a cheapo label that's part of DA, too, that one's called Jazz Colours, I think.

Has anyone here had a chance to compare some Black Lion CDs to 1201 CDs? I have only had either or, never had both editions of the same title - I wonder if there's any noticeable differene. (I have two of the Monk in London and some Dexter as Black Lion that I am aware has by now been reissued on 1201 again.)

[Д.Д.]

I think DA Musik is the owner of the Black Lion/Freedom catalogue... I haven't seen any other than 1201 editions of "Silent Tongues", David, I think these are the same ones being sold here.

There's also a cheapo label that's part of DA, too, that one's called Jazz Colours, I think.

Has anyone here had a chance to compare some Black Lion CDs to 1201 CDs? I have only had either or, never had both editions of the same title - I wonder if there's any noticeable differene. (I have two of the Monk in London and some Dexter as Black Lion that I am aware has by now been reissued on 1201 again.)

Same stuff. I have DA Musik / Black Lion eidtion of Silent Tongues: http://www.da-music.de/shop/dispitem.php3?...=0&maxrec=3

Jazz Colors series on DA Musik has a lot of good stuff - I just listened to Bechet/Pee Wee Russell set today - excellent. Don Byas concert recordings are outstanding as well. And the sound is good. I don't have Dexter (not a big fan).

[king ubu]

Yeah, but are the remasterings different or not? I wonder, since Black Lion CDs are often not exactly state of the art, while 1201 CDs say "24 bit remastered".

I'll have to get both Cecils, don't have "Silent Tongue" yet, either.

I played some ratty discs again of late and enjoyed them a lot:

Billy Hart - Enchance (A&M)

Marion Brown Quartet (new ESP reissue)

Marion Brown - Why Not (ESP/Abraxas, italian release)

Hemingway/Graewe/Reijseger - The View from Points West

and the magnificient Jimmy Lyons box, all through, after getting those mails from Ayler records like 10 times or so (I seem to get all their mailings at least twice... same for Atavistic, and I have not signed up with two addresses).