Funny Rat

[Д.Д.]

I like EAI as (most) of other forms of improvisation that I've encounter so far, but, I'm sorry, EAI doesn't feel the map alone for me. Very far to.

Ther's good, ther's bad and even VERY BAD EAI.

Including on the ERSTWHILE label.

of course, most of any genre is crap. I'd like to hear your specifics regarding Erstwhile, though.

jon, would be curious to hear what your least-favorite Erstwhile releases are ("insider" diplomacy permitting...)

As for my recent Erstwhile exporations, I enjoyed immencesly Cor Fuhler / Gert Jan-Princ "The Flirts", while Burkhard Stangl / Christof Kurzmann "schnee_live" I found boring (and I liked "Schnee").

Where shold I file the schnee discs - in K or S, btw?

Edited April 17, 2006 by Д.Д.

[jon abbey]

jon, would be curious to hear what your least-least favorite Erstwhile releases are ("insider" diplomacy permitting...)

well, there are a few categories, sometimes it's just that I know they could have been even better if the musicians had taken my suggestions (Bits, Bots and Signs, the Dorner/Drumm), sometimes it just didn't work as "magically" as I'd hoped, and then there are some of the earliest ones before I really established an aesthetic.

there's nothing in the catalog I'm even slightly embarrassed about, though, especially considering I had pretty much no contacts in this world when I started in 1998, I was just a hardcore fan like pretty much everyone reading this now.

but if I had to go back and retroactively delete a couple of titles, I'd probably go with the Earl Howard/Denman Maroney and the Dean Roberts/Werner Dafeldecker. not that either of them is bad, and Earl ended up being my mastering engineer and a key part of my label, but that one has solo tracks as well as duos, I haven't put out anything solo since (that was the first disc I commissioned), and the Dean/Werner disc was their first meeting, we all got a little too excited and we should have waited a year or so for them to gel, I think.

also, I try to keep Erst a bit broader than my own taste, specifically with the Marcus Schmickler records and a couple of others. those aren't really my personal faves, but for some people, they're the best part of the catalog.

[jon abbey]

As for my recent Erstwhile exporations, I enjoyed immencesly Cor Fuhler / Gert Jan-Princ "The Flirts", while Burkhard Stangl / Christof Kurzmann "schnee_live" I found boring (and I liked "Schnee").

here, perfect example, I love schnee_live and am not so crazy about the Fuhler/Prins disc. I'd say file under S.

[Д.Д.]

jon, would be curious to hear what your least-least favorite Erstwhile releases are ("insider" diplomacy permitting...)

well, there are a few categories, sometimes it's just that I know they could have been even better if the musicians had taken my suggestions (Bits, Bots and Signs, the Dorner/Drumm), sometimes it just didn't work as "magically" as I'd hoped, and then there are some of the earliest ones before I really established an aesthetic.

there's nothing in the catalog I'm even slightly embarrassed about, though, especially considering I had pretty much no contacts in this world when I started in 1998, I was just a hardcore fan like pretty much everyone reading this now.

but if I had to go back and retroactively delete a couple of titles, I'd probably go with the Earl Howard/Denman Maroney and the Dean Roberts/Werner Dafeldecker. not that either of them is bad, and Earl ended up being my mastering engineer and a key part of my label, but that one has solo tracks as well as duos, I haven't put out anything solo since (that was the first disc I commissioned), and the Dean/Werner disc was their first meeting, we all got a little too excited and we should have waited a year or so for them to gel, I think.

also, I try to keep Erst a bit broader than my own taste, specifically with the Marcus Schmickler records and a couple of others. those aren't really my personal faves, but for some people, they're the best part of the catalog.

Thanks for candid response - I appreciate your being not too bound by the internal politics of the tight imporvised music world.

And well, Lehn/Schmickler's "Bart" is one of my favorite Erstwhile releases, of course ...

As for my recent Erstwhile exporations, I enjoyed immencesly Cor Fuhler / Gert Jan-Princ "The Flirts", while Burkhard Stangl / Christof Kurzmann "schnee_live" I found boring (and I liked "Schnee").

here, perfect example, I love schnee_live and am not so crazy about the Fuhler/Prins disc. I'd say file under S.

There are some sounds I just like, nearly regardless of the context. Fuhler/Prins disc is full of these sounds - all these low-end blips and clicks and hiss. And, well, I do like the ideas as well. Fuhler/Prins "The Flirts" and Drumm/Tétreault "Particles and Smears" have some of my favorite sounds in Erstwhile catalog. At the same time, there are sounds I just cannot appreciate, to the point that I don't care whether there are any profound ideas undelying - Sachiko M's sine waves would be one example (although, having seen her live, I frankly somewhat doubt the ideas component either).

[jon abbey]

Sachiko is one of a handful of the most sensitive and compelling improvisers in the world today, although obviously high-pitched electronics aren't to everyone's taste. did you see her solo or in collaboration? her solo sets are basically conceptual at this point, "Bar Sachiko", she just plays one or two or three constant sine waves, there's almost no changing. I'm not a fan of this solo stuff (she has done more interesting solo work in the past), but she's a brilliant collaborative improviser.

[Д.Д.]

Sachiko is one of a handful of the most sensitive and compelling improvisers in the world today, although obviously high-pitched electronics aren't to everyone's taste. did you see her solo or in collaboration? her solo sets are basically conceptual at this point, "Bar Sachiko", she just plays one or two or three constant sine waves, there's almost no changing. I'm not a fan of this solo stuff (she has done more interesting solo work in the past), but she's a brilliant collaborative improviser.

Jon, it was solo and duo the same night. Solo was indeed mainly the same wave with very little variation (and even that could have stemmed from my head movements ). Let me quote myself:

I saw Otomo Yoshihide / Sachiko M concert (it was Sachiko solo first, Otomo solo second and then a short duo) - it was pretty weak and uninspired/uninspiring. Otomo started with a horrendous (and seemingly endless) verison of "Lonely Woman" on guitar that sounded clumsy, static, monotonous and directionless. Then there was a boring electronics set (with only occasional interesting moments) where he could not really concentrate because of the constant photo flashes.

Sashiko M was interesting in that I discovered that the sound of sine waves changes dramatically depending on the position of the head (ears, I to be precise) - so I spent most of the concert running / jumping around the hall turning my head constantly (to the delight of the audience - the club was packed by the way, 100 poeple or so). Otherwise, sine waves are sine waves, nothing too exciting here - but pretty painful on the ears. They did exactly the same shit when they played together - nothing really changed, just two solo sets played simultaniously.

[.:.impossible]

Sashiko M was interesting in that I discovered that the sound of sine waves changes dramatically depending on the position of the head (ears, I to be precise) - so I spent most of the concert running / jumping around the hall turning my head constantly (to the delight of the audience - the club was packed by the way, 100 poeple or so).

I love it! For the past half hour or so, I've been playing A#, B, D#, E in the third octave of my vibraphone which can create a real scream with all kinds of imbalance, overtones and clash depending on which notes are ringing at the same time, the time intervals between notes, etc. It sounds wild from above the keyboard and changes quite a bit when I move ever so slightly. I have no idea was it sounds like around the room though!

[jon abbey]

maybe you caught them on a bad night, they've told me that Filament is really a studio project, not a live one (although they sometimes do shows when they're invited still).

[.:.impossible]

FWIW, I think the Sachiko/Toshi Ersts (do, Weather Sky, Cosmos, Good Morning Good Night) are some of the strongest releases on the label, those would probably all be in my personal top 10 or 12. I wouldn't expect them to be big favorites around these parts, though.

Cosmos will be making their US debut in late September at ErstQuake 3 in NYC, I'm really excited about that, haven't seen them since 2002.

Jon, why wouldn't you expect them to be big favorites here, as opposed to any other place? I'm just curious. I had a lot of fun singing along to Cosmos. I wouldn't say it is a favorite, as I don't hear anything exceptional about what Ami Yoshida does with her voice. I've only listened to it once though...

[Д.Д.]

Jon, why wouldn't you expect them to be big favorites here, as opposed to any other place? I'm just curious. I had a lot of fun singing along to Cosmos. I wouldn't say it is a favorite, as I don't hear anything exceptional about what Ami Yoshida does with her voice. I've only listened to it once though...

talking about exceptional vocalists, have you heard Sainkho Namchulak?

[jon abbey]

Jon, why wouldn't you expect them to be big favorites here, as opposed to any other place?

because the tastes of the people on this thread seem generally to be rooted in Euro free improv, or US artists following in their footsteps, and what the Tokyo crew do is a decidedly different thing.

you don't hear anything exceptional about what Ami does with her voice? hmm, I don't even really know how to respond to that. FWIW, there's no electronic manipulation involved, just her singing into a microphone.

bringing this sidetrack full circle, Sainkho sat in for one of the sets of the Evan Parker Electroacoustic Ensemble night Nate and I saw in Victo a while back.

[Д.Д.]

Jon, why wouldn't you expect them to be big favorites here, as opposed to any other place?

because the tastes of the people on this thread seem generally to be rooted in Euro free improv, or US artists following in their footsteps, and what the Tokyo crew do is a decidedly different thing.

I like what Tokyo crew is doing.

[jon abbey]

"Tokyo crew" is shorthand, you know precisely what I mean.

[Д.Д.]

"Tokyo crew" is shorthand, you know precisely what I mean.

I do, I do.

Honestly, other than Otomo, Sachiko and Toshimaru, I really haven't heard anybody from The Tokyo Crew.

I also don't know what the last name for Japanese is (Otomo or Nakamura?).

Edited April 17, 2006 by Д.Д.

[David Ayers]

"Tokyo crew" is shorthand, you know precisely what I mean.

I do, I do.

Honestly, other than Otomo, Sachiko and Toshimaru, I really haven't heard anybody from The Tokyo Crew.

I also don't know what the last name for Japanese is (Otomo or Nakamura?).

Looks interesting - are you recommending it? And do I go for the Japanese issue or the Cortical?

Edited April 17, 2006 by David Ayers

[.:.impossible]

FWIW, there's no electronic manipulation involved, just her singing into a microphone.

I'm not being difficult, but it doesn't sound like there is any electronic manipulation involved. She sounds like she is making sounds with her throat and mouth.

I respect the hell out of Erstwhile and related recordings for challenging me to listen and think differently. I just haven't yet found the depth or, say, joy in Cosmos that I find in, for instance, tint (from the Amplify 2002 box). I don't think I am being dense, I just felt silly for listening tor to Cosmos. This doesn't mean I have written it off, just that I did not get it.

Hahen Fukei just came on the stereo from the Otomo Yoshihide album DREAMS. I really like Sachiko M in this setting, but I am still on the fence about sine waves in more intimate settings myself. I do like the more erratic uses of the machines though.

Hey, I'm new to all of this stuff and still forming my opinions. I hope I am not coming off as closed-minded.

[Guest Chaney]

.:.impossible: Many of us in this thread are your fellow travelers. The only Rat I know of well-versed in the whole EAI thang is John B.

~~~~~~~~~~

Signifying Junkie: A Non-Believer’s Appreciation of Bill Evans by Tom Djll

Edited April 17, 2006 by Chaney

[.:.impossible]

John B and I have talked about Cosmos before, I think. If I remember, this is one of the Ersts that he did not own. I haven't seen much discussion of this recording anywhere. I may have read a few comments on ihm...

I just don't want to come off as unappreciative for all that Jon Abbey does, and I don't want to come off like I have already made my decisions and that is that.

[jon abbey]

I just don't want to come off as unappreciative for all that Jon Abbey does, and I don't want to come off like I have already made my decisions and that is that.

no worries, you don't have to hold your tongue around me. I really just never heard that kind of take on Ami before, and don't know how to react to it.

[Д.Д.]

Looks interesting - are you recommending it? And do I go for the Japanese issue or the Cortical?

This is extremely brutal scream-fest, I am not even sure what to compare it with (imagine Brötzmann and Bailey at their most noisy). I like it a lot. I have DIW edition, and the sound quality is very good.

[Д.Д.]

Signifying Junkie: A Non-Believer’s Appreciation of Bill Evans by Tom Djll

I read it ealrier today, and it resonates strongly with my lack of adoration for Evans' music. And of what I heard, the Village Vanguard material is my least favorite (my favorite is probably What's new - a rather muscular date with Jeremy Steig, Eddie Gomez and Marty Morrell).

[jon abbey]

I'd recommend these two Takayanagi discs over the collaborations with Abe (plus they're cheaper):

http://www.fe.org/artists/takayanagi.new.d...n.masayuki.html

[David Ayers]

Looks interesting - are you recommending it? And do I go for the Japanese issue or the Cortical?

This is extremely brutal scream-fest, I am not even sure what to compare it with (imagine Brötzmann and Bailey at their most noisy). I like it a lot. I have DIW edition, and the sound quality is very good.

Hmmmm - thanks David - one there for an idle mouse finger to get to work on...

[Д.Д.]

Looks interesting - are you recommending it? And do I go for the Japanese issue or the Cortical?

This is extremely brutal scream-fest, I am not even sure what to compare it with (imagine Brötzmann and Bailey at their most noisy). I like it a lot. I have DIW edition, and the sound quality is very good.

Hmmmm - thanks David - one there for an idle mouse finger to get to work on...

This one is available relatively cheap ($18) from downtownmusicgallery.com

[.:.impossible]

Well, I didn't go back and pull out Tears today, but I did pull out tint (disc 2 from the Amplify02 set). I mentioned this duo before. Gunter Muller (ipod, minidisc, selected percussion, electronics) and Toshimaru Nakamura (no-input mixing board) improvising very pleasantly for about 50 minutes in Tokyo October 13, 2002.

If this disc is still available as a separate from Jon, I would recommend it wholeheartedly. I can't speak for the entire box, though listening to this disc does make me wish I owned it!

Prior to listening to tint, I decided it was time to unwrap AMM The Inexhaustible Document. I have no idea why I hadn't unwrapped it a year and a half ago when it arrived! This is largely my introduction to AMM, though I have heard them on the radio in Cambridge the night John B and I went to see Rowe. I don't know if it was the daunting cover art or something I'd read elsewhere, but I thought this was going to be a dense and heavy object that I would not be able to lift. On the contrary. I really enjoyed both tracks. I will be seeking out more AMM in this configuration, as well as the duo, trio, etc. I am hooked. Recommedations from Rats welcome!

P.S. For some strange reason, I felt compelled to go back to page 1 and skim through about 46 pages before giving up. I love what this thread has become!