Funny Rat

[jon abbey]

AMM actually took me a while to get really into/understand after I first encountered them. I read about them in the first edition of the Penguin Guide and when Peter Stubley's EFI site started up, then I happened to see a copy of The Crypt for sale at the Jazz Record Center, so I picked it up. I really didn't get it, but for some reason, I gradually picked up a handful more of their releases and I saw them here in 1994 (the show that's the third disc of Laminal, not one of their better moments, live or on disc). it was about the fifth disc I got that was the breakthrough, it happened to be Generative Themes, but I think it was more important that it was the fifth and that I'd let this kind of music sink in for a few years. it was hard for me to understand at the time how musicians could be seemingly ignoring each other but the whole could still add up to far more than the sum of the parts. but once I connected with it, it changed my life, no hyperbole there.

anyway, it's funny, now the AMM discography is mostly a little too old-school for my tastes (not all of it, but too often Prevost jumps out of the mix to break the atmosphere). I do think the comment "unfamiliar sounds tend to throw me" is a strange one for someone obviously into so much of what this thread covers, but I guess I understand. I don't think it's the sounds that throw you, I think it's the logic behind them, it's a different way of thinking, but maybe you know that already.

[Guest Chaney]

I don't think it's the sounds that throw you, I think it's the logic behind them, it's a different way of thinking, but maybe you know that already.

Jon: Care to comment of this bit of a Jazz Review "blindfold" listening session from John Butcher:

TONY OXLEY

Quartet 1, from The Tony Oxley Quartet (1992)

Derek Bailey (g); Tony Oxley (perc); Pat Thomas (elec); Matt Wand (drum machine, tapes).

INCUS CD 15

Derek Bailey and.... Ingar Zach? Oh, it's Oxley and.... probably Pat Thomas, and I think Matt Wand's in there somewhere.

Tell us about the difficulties of playing with electronics.

There's a lot of different kinds of electronics now. The earlier school, if you like, which this is part of - they can chop and change between, not just quite different sounds, but idiomatic references can come flowing in and out, and if you're using samplers you can have a little snippet of three beats from an organ trio, and then something else, and then something else - how do you respond to that on the saxophone, when every time somebody throws something at you they then pull the carpet out from under you? I've worked with (Steve) Beresford a bit, and he can be like that. You can get into something, then suddenly it's all gone - it can he twittering birds where a minute ago it was rumbling big-band music. In a way there's a kind of energy there, because the ingredients can be like rhythmic stabs in the music, as much as referring to idioms.

But there's also a new area of electronic music, from some of Viennese musicians I work with, for instance, which seems to be very concerned with not having the kind of expressive quality from this locality of playing, particularly with the laptop players. You can have very slow-moving, sustained sounds, which begin and end cleanly, and it's completely different from an acoustic instrument, which has various problem areas - a note always starts with some measure of attack. I find that an interesting area to work in, too.

I don't want to remove expression from what I do, but it's intriguing to try and pull yourself away from the way your body makes you play and into the way your mind might make you play. Which is what the laptop people are doing. There's no physical relationship between what they're doing and the sounds they're making. It's as if it's straight from up there and into the sound source. To me, that's the most significant split in improvised music in recent times. Ultimately, my roots are in this English, quick-listening, quick-response way of playing.

There might be a problem for the listener in all this. Some of these situations may have conceptual and procedural substance for the participants, while the audience could question whether it's actually interesting to listen to.

The drones have really taken over a lot of the electronic side. I don't know if it's a generational thing, but what I've found at some of these festivals is that the audience seem to work in a different time-frame. I don't know if it's drugs, or whatever (laughs).

In many ways, the most influential improvising group has turned out to be AMM, at least as far as the younger scene is concerned. You could say that it's easier to approach from that direction, rather than the kind of instrumental virtuosity represented by Evan or John.

The best players in this area, I find, are usually those who've had some background on a conventional instrument first and have then gone into electronics. Some of the fans of that kind of music would say it just shows how empty instrumental virtuosity is, and what matters is what your ideas are, not ten years of working in a little room on the physical problems of your instrument. But I think that those ten years of working on the minutiae of your instrument are invaluable. You're focusing on sound, controlling sound, and ultimately the body is the fastest physical controller.

The Test

Edited February 21, 2006 by Chaney

[jon abbey]

interesting, is that whole thing online somewhere?

I have huge amounts of respect for John, he's probably my favorite saxophonist in the world (pretty much the only one I can listen to these days). but he is rooted somewhat in first generation EFI (as he says there), and there are even newer waves of musicians coming up, who he's probably not so familiar with. as far as the London scene goes, Mark Wastell and the group of musicians around him (Graham Halliwell, Matt Davis, sometimes Phil Durrant) are probably the most currently tapped into what's happening in international improv in 2006. John is a bit UK-centric, despite his extensive work with the Vienna crew, and occasional dips into the Tokyo crew, his mindset is still very rooted in the London scene's way of thinking about things.

[jon abbey]

oh, I see the link now, thanks...

[clifford_thornton]

Concerts vs. Concert recordings - all seems to me like good old Bob Smithson, the whole site/non-site dialectic. As in, the work as it "occurs" experienced live has a set of rules that are entirely its own, and a recording of such a work has a completely different context and rules, essentially making each of them two different works. Like how an Ansel Adams photograph of the Rockies and actually being at or in that same geographical spot in Real Time/Experience are entirely different things. Funny to be invoking Adams here with AMM and Bob Smithson, but whatever...

[Guest akanalog]

as far as blacke saint/soule note if you don't have them-the andrew cyrille lead quartet albums from the early 80s (late 70s?) are excellent. i am thinking primarily of "the navigator" "special people" and "metamusicians stomp". i do not think these cyrille albums get enough credit for being among the best small group performances of this time period.

[Guest Chaney]

wow, Temps Duree is still around? did you get confirmation of that from Christmann? I thought I bought the last copies of that from Thomas like 4-5 years ago. really good record, and awesome packaging...

I received my Edition Explico order today, with temps duree numbered 148/150. While I didn't ask Gunter how many copies remained, I'm guessing that the disks leave him in numerical order and so those wanting to get their hands on a copy of this one should act quickly.

VERY strange packaging: a standard jewel case with two pieces of wood attached to the cover, one painted yellow and flat and the other painted red. (The entire front of the jewel case is covered by the two pieces of wood.) If you open the CD case, the inside front shows the yellow and red bits of wood through the clear plastic, attached with what appears to be yellow double-sided tape. (May not be tape as the wood is so firmly attached.) Inside, glued to the inside of the liner notes, are two strings, one metal and the other a synthetic material.

As Carson would say, wild, wacky stuff!

But now, to have a listen...

As a freebie, I was also sent a copy of the very beautifully packaged nat nat. That'd be explico 03 with Bosetti / Christmann. NOW to find a turntable as it's a 45, pressed on very heavy vinyl.

Edited February 21, 2006 by Chaney

[ep1str0phy]

as far as blacke saint/soule note if you don't have them-the andrew cyrille lead quartet albums from the early 80s (late 70s?) are excellent. i am thinking primarily of "the navigator" "special people" and "metamusicians stomp". i do not think these cyrille albums get enough credit for being among the best small group performances of this time period.

I own only "Metamusicians' Stomp," but it's a favorite--probably one of the best post-Ornette quartet records out there. The whole band just cooks--and it's always nice to hear Ted Daniels (one of the most underrated trumpet players in the "New Thing"). Few combos have found interesting, original things to do with the trumpet/reed/bass/drum format, but that Maono record will always be a beautiful exception.

[Guest Chaney]

Of course, also wonderful and on Black Saint: four by Jimmy Lyons : Give It Up, Nuba, Something In Return and Burnt Offering.

[ep1str0phy]

Just 'cause we're talking Black Saint, I'll bring up John Carter's "Dauwhe." Just got it a couple of days ago--heavy, heavy stuff (I'm sure most of you are hip to it). Carter is a legend of modern clarinet--and what beautiful compositions! Top-flight in every respect. The band is a plus.

[jon abbey]

I don't have much interest in most of the Black Saint/Soul Note catalog anymore, but the ones that I think are real classics are Bill Dixon-Vade Mecum and Vade Mecum II, quartets with William Parker, Barry Guy and Tony Oxley, following up the chamber jazz legacy of the Giuffre/Bley/Swallow trio.

[Guest Chaney]

From the European Free Improv site:

Günter Christmann has issued, on Explico, Mal d'archive 2 with himself alongside Serge Baghdassarians and Boris Baltschun and Vario-41 by Boris Baltschun/John Butcher/Günter Christmann/Michael Griener in a limited edition of 150 numbered copies.

Anyone familiar with Edition Explico? With Günter Christmann?

I got Vario-41 at the TMM in Berlin last fall - still haven't listened to it.

Listened to Vario-41, and I htough it was quite weak - no interesting ideas (even from Butcher), no development, regular free-improv noodling. This might be the least successful deisc with Butcher I've heard so far.

Unfortunately, after only one listen, I'd have to agree. There's just nothing there to grab hold of. Nothing to draw you in or even... I don't know! Very weak and very disappointing. Damn.

~~~~~~~~~~

Nice pictures...

Edited February 22, 2006 by Chaney

[ep1str0phy]

I don't have much interest in most of the Black Saint/Soul Note catalog anymore, but the ones that I think are real classics are Bill Dixon-Vade Mecum and Vade Mecum II, quartets with William Parker, Barry Guy and Tony Oxley, following up the chamber jazz legacy of the Giuffre/Bley/Swallow trio.

I keep hearing things about the Dixons, although they aren't exactly canon (sleeper classics, I guess). Next time I see one, I'll pick it up.

[jon abbey]

that all depends on whose canon you're following, I suppose. here's a rough one I did quickly on Jazz Corner in 2004 (there would be a few more Ersts in there if I updated it, Good Morning Good Night and EL005 certainly, probably not many other changes), along the lines of Ben Ratliff's book and the Penguin Guide "crowns", but trying to be a bit more wide-ranging in terms of the ground covered as well as bringing it up to the current date:

http://www.jazzcornertalk.com/speakeasy/sh...1675#post261675

[clifford_thornton]

Nice mention of Takayanagi. I've wanted to hear those Axis: Another Revolvable Thing records, but alas, my wallet can't hang with their going rate...

[clifford_thornton]

I keep hearing things about the Dixons, although they aren't exactly canon (sleeper classics, I guess). Next time I see one, I'll pick it up.

Those are very good dates, as are the duets with Tony Oxley. I've not heard much "bad" Dixon, though there are some less interesting titles for sure. Odyssey is a motherfucker, though!

[king ubu]

So David seems to be the one person on the whole board who made the single one post including Guerino Mazzola's name... anybody has any impressions, any recommendations?

I have recently bought "In Orbit" (Music&Arts), by Mazzola/Heinz Geisser/Rob Brown (mostly on flute, not alto). There are plans for a radio show (interview) on Mazzola, which is the main reason I picked up the disc. Gave it one listen so far and found it rather conventional and boring, I'm afraid. Sure, there's a density of some kind that is not just run-of-the-mill free jazz, but much more than that it ain't, I think.

I assume Mazzola has been majorly influenced by Cecil. To that he adds his music/mathematics stuff (which I don't know a lot about, another friend of mine would cover that if we'd do a radio show with/about him), and out comes a somewhat cool, tense free music that is probably not half as free in the end, as it sounds.

Rob Brown does ok, but for me, Geisser is providing most of the highpoints of this disc.

and a quote from the musicandarts page:

Writes fellow-improviser Scott Fields in his liner notes, "[We have here] spontaneous composition in which the trio's sense of form erases the distinction between improvisation and premeditation. Any free improviser works with a core of practiced material. (As Mazzola says, "This music is quite the contrary of spontaneous improvisation. It's about long-term planning and then, when the job takes off, a sudden burst of all those well-planned energies.").

In the least-interactive, and so in my mind least-sophisticated and least-interesting, freely improvising ensembles, individual musicians work their core material without adapting it significantly to the contributions of their fellow improvisers. Layers of practiced ideas meet without evolving new ideas. But I never get that feeling in the seven compositions on Orbit.

Of course, the artists on Orbit have also practiced improvisational ideas in isolation and they have repertoires of techniques, but this music never sounds cobbled together from set pieces. The trio members listen and react to each other, while meticulously avoiding such hackneyed, free-improvisation gambits as echoing, which Roscoe Mitchell has scornfully referred to as 'follow the leader.'"

Guerino Mazzola's homepage

[paul secor]

I bought In Orbit several years ago, mainly for Rob Brown's presence. I gave it several listens over a period of time, found it rather boring also, and sold it. Obviously, not a recording I'd recommend.

[king ubu]

Thanks for chiming in, Paul. I just played "In Orbit" again and liked it a lot better, this time. Brown's micro-tones on flute are rather impressive! But then somehow the music - while I found some parts of it quite beautiful, this time around, mainly the opening two tracks and the beginning of the third, too - leaves me rather cold, has maybe got some kind of "academic" touch...

[paul secor]

Thanks for the welcome, Flurin. I haven't followed This thread, for whatever reasons, but I started reading it from the beginning yesterday to find out what's gone on. So far, I'm at 10 pages - only 387 to go!

Whoops - make that 388. I just started a new page.

Edited February 23, 2006 by paul secor

[Jazzmoose]

Wow. I must admit, I haven't read every page on this thread. It's more of a "check in and see what's new" thing for me. Just lazy, I guess, but when I was trying to read the thread from the beginning, it was starting to get expensive...

[rostasi]

I think that someday I need to begin reading this thread too,

but like Jazzmoose, I'm waiting to hit the Lottery.

Rod

[Д.Д.]

For the American rats:

Jazzloft.com has a sale on all Black Saint / Soul Note CDs - $15 per piece. Does not make much sense for us in Europe (there are a could pof good sources for these releases here9, but I assume this is the best price you can get itn the US. I will post a list of some of my favorite BS/SN discs later.

My favorities on Black Saint / Soul Note:

"THE FLAM" FRANK LOWE - Frank Lowe is hero tenor blower, and this is the best Frank Lowe I've heard (together with his duo with Rashied Ali, I guess) - some very powerful free-bop playing (nice compositions as well). Lowe is very intense, but very focused, and there is a really mad bassist (Alex Blake, iirc), who just rips the bass to pieces.

"HOLDING TOGETHER" OLIVER LAKE - ths is early Lake, quite a bit more adventurous than he is now. The music is quite abstract with a few meandering moments, bt on the whole is quite orgiginal and powerful.

"THE NEW VILLAGE ON THE LEFT" MARCELLO MELIS - this is a recent edition, bought based on brownie's recommendation, and it is excellent. Melis is a bassist and composer, and the band includes Roswell Rudd, Enrico Rava and Don Moye. There is also a Sardenian folk mail vocal quartet! Sardenian vocal music is really uniue in its polyphony, some of the most complicated polyphonic singning in the world (together with Georgian, baka pygmies and Tahitian singing), with a use of overtone ("throat") singing (a bit like Tuvan). The harmonies that are created are just mesmerizing. I've heard some Sardeninan folk muisc before and was interested to hear how it was integrated in Melis' disc - and it is integrated perfectly. The compositions are based on folk themes (and I started understanding it only well into the middle of the disc after the vocal guys kikced in); vocal segements are breathtaking (beter than everythng I've heard of Sardenian music before, I just wish there would be more of them on this disc); the blowing is excellent (Rava is really fiery here). There is a beautiful track of Rudd playing over the vocal quarttet - now I am not the biggest fan of Rudd (I think he often lacks subtlety and is a bit of a one-trick pony), but here he plays beautifully complementing perfectly what the quartet is creating (which I think is where most of the "world music fusion" (including Rudd himself on his "Malicool" disc) fails - to add something of value to the folk music - in most cases it either subtracts from the folk music effect, or merely co-exists). And the main (of many) highlight for me is Don Moye. I think Moye is one of the greatest jazz drummers, and IMO his best plying is documented outside of AEoC, and this might be one of such records. He is extremly inventive, with a great expresive range, and just makes everybody sound better (there is also a segemnt where he plays with Sardenians, responding to what they are singing - sublime!).

Ths might be my favorite Black Saint / Soul Note disc now.

"THE FIFTH POWER" LESTER BOWIE - remember liking it a lot - buzt that's all I remember about it.

"BIRTH AND REBIRTH" MAX ROACH-ANTHONY BRAXTON - good one, even if Roach is not listening too much, IMO.

"NIGHT FIRE" THE JOHN CARTER QUINTET - John Carter is the meanist clarinet player out there

"DAUWHE" THE JOHN CARTER OCTET - this is essential both for great compositions and equally great playing.

"Some Order, Long Understood" - Wayne Horvitz / Butch Morris / William Parker - I thiught this was quite a unique, dark brooding record. Parker's playing is not too bad here

"BLUES FOREVER" - MUHAL RICHARD ABRAMS BAND - also fgreat composiitons for a large band, and excellent playing.

"SIX MONK'S COMPOSITIONS" - 1987 ANTHONY BRAXTON. I thought this one was a very good interpretation of Monk, with hilarious first track played at breakneck tempo.

shit... they have a huge catalog - I'll continue some time later...

I have huge amounts of respect for John [butcher], he's probably my favorite saxophonist in the world (pretty much the only one I can listen to these days). but he is rooted somewhat in first generation EFI (as he says there), and there are even newer waves of musicians coming up, who he's probably not so familiar with. as far as the London scene goes, Mark Wastell and the group of musicians around him (Graham Halliwell, Matt Davis, sometimes Phil Durrant) are probably the most currently tapped into what's happening in international improv in 2006. John is a bit UK-centric, despite his extensive work with the Vienna crew, and occasional dips into the Tokyo crew, his mindset is still very rooted in the London scene's way of thinking about things.

As for Butcher's ties to tradition (whatever it is), I saw Butcher live at TMM - first in duo with Gio RObair, which was very good, and then in trio with drummer Fabrizio Sperra and bassist Lisle Ellis, which left a very mbiguous impression. Sperra is an excellent, very gentle and musical drummer and he complimented Butcher well, but Ellis was doing all this really traditional fast walking bass lines (and also played with some electronic gear, which was a disaster - he had to stop what he as playing, tweak this box attached to the bass for several seconds, extract some ugly (and seemingly random) distorted bass sound, again stop for several seconds, tweak the box again, ang go back to his acoustic playing - all this destroying the flow and logics of music comletely). So Butcher was trying to interact with this somehow, and then at some point, visually annoyed, went into some jazzy free macho tenor blowing, very uncharacteristic for him. The blowing was really good, but he was obviously unsatisfied that he was pushed to do it and halted it rather fast.

Concerts vs. Concert recordings - all seems to me like good old Bob Smithson, the whole site/non-site dialectic. As in, the work as it "occurs" experienced live has a set of rules that are entirely its own, and a recording of such a work has a completely different context and rules, essentially making each of them two different works. Like how an Ansel Adams photograph of the Rockies and actually being at or in that same geographical spot in Real Time/Experience are entirely different things. Funny to be invoking Adams here with AMM and Bob Smithson, but whatever...

I htink I read some semi-scientific article discribing that recording, however perfect, is not able to catch all the acoustic nuances of a musical (or any) sound, and its perception live or on record by defualt will be different.

Just 'cause we're talking Black Saint, I'll bring up John Carter's "Dauwhe." Just got it a couple of days ago--heavy, heavy stuff (I'm sure most of you are hip to it). Carter is a legend of modern clarinet--and what beautiful compositions! Top-flight in every respect. The band is a plus.

Totally agree.

that all depends on whose canon you're following, I suppose. here's a rough one I did quickly on Jazz Corner in 2004 (there would be a few more Ersts in there if I updated it, Good Morning Good Night and EL005 certainly, probably not many other changes), along the lines of Ben Ratliff's book and the Penguin Guide "crowns", but trying to be a bit more wide-ranging in terms of the ground covered as well as bringing it up to the current date:

http://www.jazzcornertalk.com/speakeasy/sh...1675#post261675

Great list, Jon - and I am actually quite surprised about it largely overlapping with what I'd consider best albums for these artists.

I keep hearing things about the Dixons, although they aren't exactly canon (sleeper classics, I guess). Next time I see one, I'll pick it up.

Those are very good dates, as are the duets with Tony Oxley. I've not heard much "bad" Dixon, though there are some less interesting titles for sure. Odyssey is a motherfucker, though!

You heard "Papirus Vol. 1"? - I thought it sucked big deal - Oxley being great, but Dixon plain annoying wiht all these farting sounds.

So David seems to be the one person on the whole board who made the single one post including Guerino Mazzola's name... anybody has any impressions, any recommendations?

. I have a few records with him, and all of them are with Geisser - and I thin I like them mostly for Geisser's plying.

[paul secor]

For the American rats:

Jazzloft.com has a sale on all Black Saint / Soul Note CDs - $15 per piece. Does not make much sense for us in Europe (there are a could pof good sources for these releases here9, but I assume this is the best price you can get itn the US. I will post a list of some of my favorite BS/SN discs later.

My favorities on Black Saint / Soul Note:

"THE NEW VILLAGE ON THE LEFT" MARCELLO MELIS - this is a recent edition, bought based on brownie's recommendation, and it is excellent. Melis is a bassist and composer, and the band includes Roswell Rudd, Enrico Rava and Don Moye. There is also a Sardenian folk mail vocal quartet! Sardenian vocal music is really uniue in its polyphony, some of the most complicated polyphonic singning in the world (together with Georgian, baka pygmies and Tahitian singing), with a use of overtone ("throat") singing (a bit like Tuvan). The harmonies that are created are just mesmerizing. I've heard some Sardeninan folk muisc before and was interested to hear how it was integrated in Melis' disc - and it is integrated perfectly. The compositions are based on folk themes (and I started understanding it only well into the middle of the disc after the vocal guys kikced in); vocal segements are breathtaking (beter than everythng I've heard of Sardenian music before, I just wish there would be more of them on this disc); the blowing is excellent (Rava is really fiery here). There is a beautiful track of Rudd playing over the vocal quarttet - now I am not the biggest fan of Rudd (I think he often lacks subtlety and is a bit of a one-trick pony), but here he plays beautifully complementing perfectly what the quartet is creating (which I think is where most of the "world music fusion" (including Rudd himself on his "Malicool" disc) fails - to add something of value to the folk music - in most cases it either subtracts from the folk music effect, or merely co-exists). And the main (of many) highlight for me is Don Moye. I think Moye is one of the greatest jazz drummers, and IMO his best plying is documented outside of AEoC, and this might be one of such records. He is extremly inventive, with a great expresive range, and just makes everybody sound better (there is also a segemnt where he plays with Sardenians, responding to what they are singing - sublime!).

Ths might be my favorite Black Saint / Soul Note disc now.

"SIX MONK'S COMPOSITIONS" - 1987 ANTHONY BRAXTON. I thought this one was a very good interpretation of Monk, with hilarious first track played at breakneck tempo.

shit... they have a huge catalog - I'll continue some time later...

Strong seconds on the Braxton - Six Monk's Compositions and The New Village on the Left (& several others you listed).

New Village is an overlooked minor classic. This is simplistic, but whenever I play that record and hear the Sardinian vocal quartet, I always think about four Froggie the Gremlins (U.S. members who grew up in the 50's and watched Saturday morning television will know who I'm talking about) singing doo-wop. I mean that as a total compilment - no slur on their artistry.

I hear what you're saying about Roswell Rudd, ay least to some degree. There are times (and even entire records) when he plays without a lot of subtlety. Over the whole of his recording career, though, I don't find that to be the case. I think some of what you write about depends on the context in which he's playing. I've also heard him play live several times, and never heard him in his bluster bag. Just my opinion.

P.S. - For U.S. members - Cadence sells Black Saint/Soul Note for $15 ($14 for subscribers). I believe that they distribute those labels in the U.S.

[jon abbey]

Great list, Jon - and I am actually quite surprised about it largely overlapping with what I'd consider best albums for these artists.

just because I can't listen to most of it anymore doesn't mean that I didn't spend quite some time in Funny Rat territory, as well as exploring jazz reasonably thoroughly.

what's really funny is to take a look at my rec.music.bluenote postings of a decade ago, quite a few would fit very nicely here.