Art Pepper - Complete Village Vanguard Sessions

[sidewinder]

This time I got though the whole procedure much faster - after using the promotional code I paid $ 11.74 incl. shipping to Germany!

In other words, they are paying you to take the set.

[captainwrong]

Great deals! I think there's a chance these are new, deleted items, rather than used.

Considering I've seen these same titles (Pepper, Henderson, Evans Secret Session, Debut Story) at Fye in quantity and I know Newbury has these sets cheap as well, I'd say there's a 100% chance these are cut outs rather than used. Either way, good deals.

[jlhoots]

$12.67 with an e-mail confirming.

Hope it actually ships.

[John Tapscott]

$12.67 with an e-mail confirming.

Hope it actually ships.

Yes, I've never ordered from these guys before, and I really do hope it's for real. Haven't heard this particular Pepper music for a long time. I had a couple of the LP's, but never did get any of the CD's, so mostly it's all new stuff for me. But more and more I enjoy late Pepper (I always appreciated it, but now I'm enjoying it more and more), and the back-up group here is nothing short of terrific, so who can turn it down at the price (which, as sidewinder says, is essentially a give-away).

Edited March 13, 2009 by John Tapscott

[mikelz777]

I just received my ship confirmation today so it appears to be the real deal.

Edited March 13, 2009 by mikelz777

[sal]

Considering I've seen these same titles (Pepper, Henderson, Evans Secret Session, Debut Story) at Fye in quantity and I know Newbury has these sets cheap as well, I'd say there's a 100% chance these are cut outs rather than used. Either way, good deals.

What's a cut out?

[mikelz777]

They're usually brand-new discs that have a hole-punch in the bar code or a small cut on the spine of the jewel case. In the case of a box set like this, it would probably be a set with a black permanent marker line on the bar code or the bar code is blacked out with a marker. Other than the alteration to the bar code or the spine of the case the disc(s) would be brand new. I could be wrong but I think that they are titles that are going out of print and they basically mark them and lower the price in an effort to dump the inventory. I think if it's marked as a cut-out the merchant can't return it to the manufacturer for full credit.

Edited March 13, 2009 by mikelz777

[Aggie87]

What's a cut out?

From wiki:

In the recording industry, a cut-out refers to a deeply-discounted or remaindered copy of an LP, cassette tape, Compact Disc, or other item. When LPs were the primary medium for distribution or recording, manufacturers would physically cut the corner, punch a hole, or add a notch to the spine of the jacket of unsold records returned from retailers; these "cut-outs" might then be re-sold to record retailers or other sales outlets for sale at a discounted price. A special section of a record store devoted to such items was known as the cut-out bin or bargain bin.

As tapes and CDs supplanted LPs, the mechanisms for indicating a cut-out changed. On cassettes, a hole tended to be punched or burned through the case and through its printed insert. On CDs (a practice that continues today), a section of varying size is taken out of the spine of the jewel case and its paper track listing.

Cut-outs are typically wholesaled to retailers as non-returnable items, meaning that the store cannot send them back to the distributor for a refund. Recording artists also typically do not get royalties from cut-outs, since they're sold at a "promotional" cost, far less than the retail price. Some cut-outs are stamped or stickered with labels warning that the item is "for promotional use only -- not to be sold in retail stores," but this policy has generally been ignored for decades by most record dealers and collectors. Except for the physical damage to the liner notes and outer case, the inner disc (LP or CD) is generally unharmed by the cut-out process, and sounds every bit as good as the originally-sold recording.

A similar cut-out procedure was practiced with the laserdisc home video format.

[John Tapscott]

Yes, I was going to say that a cut-out is essentially a title that's been deleted from a company's catalogue and won't be repressed. The name either comes from the fact that the title has been "cut-out" of the catalogue or more likely because in the days of the LP, a corner of the LP cover and sleeve was literally cut off to make a little triangle. Sometimes the cut was dangerously close to the actual LP.

In the case of the Pepper box it's obviously being "cut-out" of the catalogue and the distributor dumped the sets on retailers for probably a dollar or two each. Quite a write-down, I would say. They other possibility is that they were being stored in a warehouse that suffered fire or water damage. Insurance would have covered them, but the undamaged goods were picked up for cents on the dollar and found their way on to the market.

I don't care about the details, thoguh. I just want one!

Edited March 13, 2009 by John Tapscott

[Peter]

Art Peper's peak was his stand at the Maiden Voyage in 1981. There's about 3 discs worth on the Complete Galaxy Recordings. Of course Winter Moon is the best jazz strings album ever.

[Hot Ptah]

I got mine for $12.65. Thanks for the tip.

[bakeostrin]

Thanks for the tip; although the site still lists 9 available so I'll cross my fingers as to whether the set materializes.

I dig Pepper, but never have been a big box set collector. It took several years for me to find all the individual cd's from the Hollywood All Stars sessions, but I just completed it recently with the Pete Jolly and Bill Watrous dates.

I can't pass this one up.

Regards and thanks,

Baker

[Chuck Nessa]

Thanks for the tip; although the site still lists 9 available so I'll cross my fingers as to whether the set materializes.

Baker

I'm reasonably sure the number 9 is the highest they will show. They probably have a bunch more.

[bakeostrin]

I'm reasonably sure the number 9 is the highest they will show. They probably have a bunch more.

[RDK]

Thanks for the tip; although the site still lists 9 available so I'll cross my fingers as to whether the set materializes.

Baker

I'm reasonably sure the number 9 is the highest they will show. They probably have a bunch more.

I don't know. I've been in the Sherman Oaks Second Spin many times. Nine might be as high as some of the clerks can count.

[captainwrong]

What's a cut out?

From wiki:

In the recording industry, a cut-out refers to a deeply-discounted or remaindered copy of an LP, cassette tape, Compact Disc, or other item. When LPs were the primary medium for distribution or recording, manufacturers would physically cut the corner, punch a hole, or add a notch to the spine of the jacket of unsold records returned from retailers; these "cut-outs" might then be re-sold to record retailers or other sales outlets for sale at a discounted price. A special section of a record store devoted to such items was known as the cut-out bin or bargain bin.

As tapes and CDs supplanted LPs, the mechanisms for indicating a cut-out changed. On cassettes, a hole tended to be punched or burned through the case and through its printed insert. On CDs (a practice that continues today), a section of varying size is taken out of the spine of the jewel case and its paper track listing.

Cut-outs are typically wholesaled to retailers as non-returnable items, meaning that the store cannot send them back to the distributor for a refund. Recording artists also typically do not get royalties from cut-outs, since they're sold at a "promotional" cost, far less than the retail price. Some cut-outs are stamped or stickered with labels warning that the item is "for promotional use only -- not to be sold in retail stores," but this policy has generally been ignored for decades by most record dealers and collectors. Except for the physical damage to the liner notes and outer case, the inner disc (LP or CD) is generally unharmed by the cut-out process, and sounds every bit as good as the originally-sold recording.

A similar cut-out procedure was practiced with the laserdisc home video format.

Typical Wikipedia accuracy. While that blurb is mostly true, the promo stickered stuff is just that, promotional copies sent to radio, reviewers and retailers. Not quite the same as cut-outs, though promos can be designated in a similar manner, as promo copies were never intended to be sold. Cut-outs were meant to be full price retail items but were remaindered before they got there.

Back to these sets, the copies I've purchased have either had the barcodes blacked out with marker or physically cut out of the box.

[fasstrack]

I have mixed feelings about Art Pepper. I liked, even loved his earlier stuff. I'm almost tempted to say I liked his self-justifying, self-deluding----but often profoundly moving auto-bio more. I think he sort of went off the deep end musically after he got obsessed with Trane and never fully got back on track, though he still played really well. You could hear pain, torment, anger. It was honest and real. Maybe some of it was great, but there was a lightness, such an easy swing on his first things that just, to me, blow this stuff away. I've heard some of this live stuff, and he's so cacked out making the announcements it's a miracle he could play at all. It's disturbing to hear: playing, patter, everything. It's hard to hear someone that talented flush it down the toilet and abuse themself like this.

To be honest, I think he never reached his phenomenal potential, perhaps b/c of the drugs and the hard road he trod. Even earlier on it seemed like he never finished his ideas, like a musical tease. He's a strange one. Great talent, swung his ass off, great sound, also a MF tenor and clarinet player. Just a natural that should've hit them over the fences---------but reading his book to hear him tell it he was a giant or something. Sorry: no cigar there, except for his monumental ego.

Just my opinion, and I really like Art Pepper. I don't want to start a war here, please.

I can't say that I have mixed feelings about Art Pepper (I think he was one of the greatest alto players of all time.) but I used to feel the same way that you do about his music. I very much preferred his earlier work and didn't like it when his work started to reflect a Coltrane-like influence. In fact, I used to own the Complete Village Vanguard Sessions box years ago when I found it for around $95.00. My ear wasn't ready for his sound at that time and I ended up selling the set after owning it less than a month just to get my money back. Flash forward several years and my ear had changed enough to where I came to really appreciate and enjoy his playing from the later part of his career. Now I've come full circle and I'm re-buying the box set (at an astoundingly better price) to complete the Pepper box trio of the Galaxy Recordings, the Hollywood All-star Sessions and the Village Vanguard Sessions. (Wow! 30 discs between the 3 sets which will put me at a total of 51 Pepper discs.) I don't see the evolution or change in his sound as a bad or lesser thing compared to his earlier work, it's just different. I don’t think he ever went off the deep end musically or that he needed to get back on track. He was just moving on a different track. Both periods of his career are enjoyable but it doesn't have to be at the expense of the other.

I don’t agree with nor do I think it’s fair to say that he didn’t reach his potential. I might agree if he had a very uneven career musically where his talent would shine here and there on occasion but his body of work was routinely very good to excellent. I don’t think that we could necessarily conclude that his music would have been exponentially better had he not been on drugs or had an easier life. Those things just as likely could have been some of the very things that fueled his excellence. Granted, some of his stage patter in the VV set tends to make him look like a bit of an ass and some of it can be a bit hard to listen to but it’s honest and real and it lends itself to a warts-and-all portrait of the man. I can see how it would turn many people off but I appreciate the fuller picture and for me, it doesn’t detract from the music at all. Oddly enough, it almost kind of enhances it knowing he could be such a strong player despite his bad habits. (Maybe it's just me.)

It looks like I came away with a different impression than yours regarding Pepper’s biography, “Straight Life”. It’s been a long time since I read it but “self-justifying” and “self-deluding” weren’t adjectives that came to my mind. He was a junkie and his biography was brutally honest and certainly didn’t pull any punches even when it reflected very badly on Art himself which was quite often. That might even give more credence to Art's self-perception. You don’t seem to agree with Art’s assertion that he was a genius on the alto sax. It’s certainly a bold statement but was it just unsupported braggadocio or was it a statement of confidence? Who, during Art’s career, was a better alto player? What alto player, during Art’s career, had equally consistent excellence shown in their body of work? And now in hindsight, how does Art’s body of work compare with those who are now considered to be the all-time great alto players in the history of jazz? I would consider his body of work to stand up equally, if not better than the generally recognized all-time alto greats. His assertion that he was a genius or a giant might easily lead one to conclude that he had a monumental ego but I think it would be much closer to being a statement of recognition than one of being self-justifying or self-delusional. All of this, of course, is just my opinion.

I really like Art Pepper as well. Can you tell?

Peace.

Thanks. Just a short response: May as well be ourselves, we're stuck with us. Musicians like myself and, I believe every musician, are---or ought to be in the 'human potential business'. To me this means to 'bring out' the tune, the audience, the players. If you dig deep enough you will hit the cherished artistic paydirt that really can uplift. It's not merely self-expression. Self-absorbed players (and people) are a terrific bore to me. But the main thing is that b/c of this belief in human potential I think people sort of can smell what's happening, if you're going through a phase, mastering an influence, etc. They may be impressed and drawn into the journey if the intensity is there, but I believe they are most touched when one is honest and just puts out what's there, the individual experience that draws on the universal. That is our real work.

I think Art Pepper had a tremendous talent and the ability and desire to communicate but sometimes allowed his immediate circumstances to musically supercede these things. What was exciting about him was the brutal honesty. But I think he got caught up in various personal things and perhaps wasn't seeing things---hearing things---as they were on the stand. And he still managed to be a great player. Imagine if he cleared that other impeding BS out of the way....

It's really interesting that, in Straight Life he said of Stan Getz that he was 'a technician, but he plays cold. I hear him as he is and he's rarely moved me'. They both had the same habits and selfishness and to me Getz reached me much more and much more deeply. Go figure. It's also funny that in an interview Stan once said "Think Bird was a giant? Imagine if he took the time to get his art together..." (in DownBeat,---a fucking rag for years to me, in the 70s sometime, anyway). Here he is saying about the great Charlie Parker what I presumptuously say about Pepper. I guess I'm just disappointed when someone that talented fucks up, in this case in an orgy of self-absorption, and takes himself (and those around him---who care and get sucked in, my real point, I guess) on trips like he seemed to. It just makes me sad. We need our artists to be in tune to make the world better and people want to be better.

I was very moved by Straight Life, BTW. The story about Stymie singing Gloomy Sunday is poetry. I loved his love for his father. But he really was self-justifying throughout. It's just that dope fiend mentality. I've been around enough junkies to know they are great bullshitters and rationalizers. Whatever. I hate to admit it, and I know how contradictory it sounds, but jazz was better and more soulful back in the day when cats used. It was in spite of, though, not because of. It had more to do, I think, with a sharing of lore and resources that, to me, only (mostly) the older cats still with us are about.

Does this resonate at all? Only my thoughts.............

Edited March 14, 2009 by fasstrack

[fasstrack]

Plus in my personal life I've actually met a few people who claim they're geniuses. . . but I don't think they are!

Ha ha! Haven't we all......I was just talking to a guy who always says this. I can only respond:

FOR ME TO POOP ON!

Like, get over yourself, MF. Let THEM tell YOU shit like that.................

Dawg.....................

Edited March 14, 2009 by fasstrack

[JSngry]

Imagine if he cleared that other impeding BS out of the way....

Then he would have been Bud Shank...

[fasstrack]

Imagine if he cleared that other impeding BS out of the way....

Then he would have been Bud Shank...

In initials, anyway

Ah, I should go practice...................Maybe I can be a musician when I grow up

[Peter Johnson]

hmmm...ordered both the Art Pepper and the Joe Henderson sets on 3/12...order confirmation, but no shipping confirmation (status: "In Progress"). Has anyone else gotten a shipping confirmation on these?

[mikelz777]

I ordered on the 12th and got the shipping notice on the 13th. The status of my order on the Secondspin web site is "shipped".

[jlhoots]

I ordered on the 13th.

Have not received a "shipped" e-mail.

On the website it says "in progress".

[mikelz777]

I don't think you guys have anything to worry about. The site still shows that there are (at least) 9 copies available. I just ordered 2 items that had a single copy available. I had them sitting in my cart for a couple of hours. In that span of time, the site showed that it went from "1" to "0" that were available and a while later, the listing for these two items didn't even show up on the artist search. This all happened while the items were still sitting in my cart before I actually even completed the purchase.

Edited March 15, 2009 by mikelz777

[aparxa]

Just received the confirmation of shipping too!

Here is an update to your order #314159265358:

Qty Artist Title Status*

1 Art Pepper Complete Village Vanguard Sessions Shipped (from CA on 03/15/09)

You selected International Mail for your delivery method. Estimated time for delivery is approximately 1-3 Weeks.