Art Ensemble of Chicago

[Alexander Hawkins]

Sorry if there's a discussion about this elsewhere - the computer I'm on is so slow, I don't dare do a search! I don't remember seeing anything.

I'm really getting into the AEC at the moment. The stuff I have is

A Jackson in Your House

Message to Our Folks

Live in Paris

Live (Mandel Hall)

Les Staunces a Sophie

People in Sorrow

Baptizum

Fanfare for the Warriors

and

Urban Bushmen.

I'm just keen for a general discussion of all things AEC! I'll doubtless learn a lot, since I'm relatively new to all of this music, so I'd also love to hear recommendations for what else I might try.

The more I listen to any of these albums, the more I hear. Little details, big 'structural' things, humour, fascinating sounds, etc. The group clearly had an absolutely rampant imagination!

A couple of more specific things - I wonder what it was like to see them live (who knows, I may yet get the chance, but I mean really when Lester Bowie was around and before Joseph Jarman's absence)?

And the vocabulary...Sure, I get the English and French stuff...But other spoken passages, and the names of the tunes, etc. Is this just verbal colour? Or some language? I'm thinking about words like 'Odwalla', etc.

That last point is really just a curiosity. None of it detracts from my complete fascination with, and enjoyment of, the music.

Just wondered what anyone else thinks!

[John L]

It sounds like the time is ripe for you to order one of the few remaining box sets from Chuck Nessa. If you like the AEC, you won't regret it. This is the foundation, and there is no duplication with what you have.

[jazzbo]

That's probably what you should do.

That's probably what I should do. I've never been able to "get" this group. I've enjoyed the recordings of some of the members individually, but collectively. . . I've hardly been able to make it through a single lp side. . . But I haven't heard these seminal recordings. . . .

[Chuck Nessa]

Reece And The Smooth Ones and Nice Guys should be added to the list.

If you are not aware of it, you should check out Jack Lefton's AEC site HERE.

[JSngry]

I saw Lester w/New Directions, Roscoe w/the Space Ensemble, and Malachi w/a group of his own, but none of those was the Art Ensemble experience, nor were they intended to be. The Art Ensemble was/is a world of its own.

I only saw them live once (and although I hope to see them again, without Lester...). They came to UNT (then NTSU) in the very late 70s and were NOT sponsored by the School of Music. Nevertheless, there was a buzz. Apparently Lester came to NT in the late 50s or so and was told by his trumpet instructor to quit playing, because he had no talent whatsoever. The "jazz department" was issuing a lot of premptive bulletins a few weeks prior to the concert, with all the instructors spouting empty platitudes like "you have to know the rules before you can break them" and "it's important to know how to play correctly if you want to have a career playing any kind of real music". It was simultaneously hilarious and disgusting, as if McDonalds was going on the defensive because they feared that their customer base was going to be seduced into becoming backyard barbequers.

They (the band) gave a Q&A session the afternoon of the concert, and it was awesome. All this equipment totally filled up the stage, percussion out the wazzoo, more saxophones than Manny's, just stuff everywhere. Roscoe spent the entire time adjusting his axes, while still participating. Malachi had a bemused look about him the whole time, and answered in a calm but mystical tone. Jarman, well, he was kinda like, "this is our life, you're getting just a taste of it, so don't think you REALLY know what we're about", but in a kind way. Don was really down to earth, and fielded the multitudinous questions from the drummers in the house (the percussion dept. @ NT was always the hippest group there) with total grace and enormous technical acumen. And Lester, well, Lester was Lester, the serious clown who would tell you everything you wanted to know, a bunch of stuff you needed to know, and a few things that you didn't want to know but really needed to anyway, all with an air of bemused irony, as if to say, "you either get it or you don't. If you get it, it doesn't matter what I say. If you don't get it, it doesn't matter what I say. So I'm just going to tell you the truth. No hard feelings either way." I never knew Lester Bowie personally, but I felt, and still feel a spiritual kinship with him that I might be entirely imagining. But I still feel it, and feel it deeply.

Finally somebody asked him, "Lester, is it true that you came to school here for a little while?" "Yeah, I was here for a semester or so." "Why did you leave?" "Had to go somewhere". And then a BIG grin that said all that needed to be said.

The concert was sold out. Full house. The crowd was about equally divided between those who dug the band ("new music" types, non-music students, lots of percussionists, and a few "rebel" jazz students) and those who came to see, somewaht skeptically, if they could "really" play. The latter faction was entirely "jazz education" students and professors. The first set started quiet and got quieter. Lots of long ringing gongs and softly stuck cymbals. vocal puncuations, etc. Individual timbres of any and all typeswere luxuriated in for hedonistically long intervals, and silence was made love to as if it was the key to life itself. This went on for about an hour, and then it was break time. What we had just heard was supremely beautiful as far as I was concerned, but it most assuredly was not an adreline-buzz inducing exploration of chord changes, modes, or anything else that is reduceable to a point that people can build careers teaching it to you. The predictable suspects all got up and left en masse, with one major faculty member saying fairly loudly, "Well, wasn't that nice?" with a more-than-slightly-audible smirk in his voice. Students could be heard mumbling the usual "what the hell was THAT?", "you call that JAZZ?", "I thought these guys would at least TRY and swing", and other things that drove home the point that, yes, you either got it or you didn't, and these cats didn't even BEGIN to get it.

Time for the second set. The band comes out, probably expecting to see a half-empty house, and with just a nod of the head, BAM!!!! they were off to the races with some of the fastest, most complex and SWINGING shit you'd ever hear in your life. And it stayed there for the rest of the night - swinging madly, deeply bluesy, and full of the type of expertise that you can learn ABOUT in school, but only really learn through experience. It was as if the first set was a purification ritual, the cleanse the audience of all who would corrupt or misuse what was forthcoming in the second. It worked.

The music school was all abuzz the next day, as the more "confident" students crowed on about how the AEC was not anything worth dealing with, and how they left after the first set and went home to practice so they didn't waste any more of their time. I told a few of these buffoons about the second set, and the few that took me seriously all said something like, "well, damn, I wish they'd have done that the FIRST set, I'd have stuck around. I KNEW they could swing!" It was then that I began to wonder if perhaps that people who obsess over whether or not other people can "swing" should probably look inward to see why the hell it concerns them so damn much.

It was also then that I began to be fully awakened to the concept that the people who insist that the music always come to them on their terms alone will never have to be worried about being overcrowded.

[Tom Storer]

That's a great description of an AEC concert, Jim. Especially "Individual timbres of any and all types were luxuriated in for hedonistically long intervals, and silence was made love to as if it was the key to life itself." Beautifully said.

As a young jazz fan, they taught me a great deal about the primacy of sound - tone and timbre, the mixing of tones and timbres in a group, and also, very importantly, dynamics. The visual thing was important - the huge array of instruments, the bright colors, the clothes and gestures - but as your eye was fascinated by their deliberate, graceful movements on stage, your ear was slowly but surely seduced by the sounds. Soft and luxurious at first, those sounds covered the whole spectrum from high-pitched clicks, taps, whistles and pings to low-pitched rattles, hums, whooshes, thumps and booms, with all manners of glimmers, gleams, shimmers, shivers and glows in and around the sides. All of this with all the air and space needed to make it breathe and roll and snake and begin to dance. Gradually the dynamic range would grow and grooves would be introduced (and subsequently unsprung). Before you knew it 90 minutes or 2 hours had passed, you had gone from quiet meditation through roaring, screaming excitement and back, and you felt like the concert had just begun. They were a life-changing group.

I saw them in Paris on the 25th anniversary of Bird's death. The concert was especially charged. At one point, at the height of musical tension, Lester turned his back on the audience and suddenly turned and there was a pistol in his hand. He pointed it out over the crowd and fired it, and that was the loudest, most shocking thing, I thought my heart would stop. It was a starter's pistol of course, but goddamn, what an effect.

And of course they could also be hilariously funny, with parodies of swing or bop that were such a mixture of affection and cynicism and fun and mockery that you found yourself both laughing and the laughed at because you were enjoying it so much despite its exaggeration.

I took a girl to see the Art Ensemble not long after we started seeing each other. She was interested but hadn't listened to much jazz at all until she met me. I had her listening to Bird and Billie Holiday and she liked that well enough, but I didn't know if the AEC would intrigue her or make her flee screaming. After the concert she turned to me with a look of consternation on her face, and I thought "Oh hell, she hated it." But she said, "WHY haven't you taken me to anything like this before?" She was thrilled by it. I married her.

That was the AEC for you. I miss Lester.

Edited November 5, 2003 by Tom Storer

[Chuck Nessa]

And the vocabulary...Sure, I get the English and French stuff...But other spoken passages, and the names of the tunes, etc. Is this just verbal colour? Or some language? I'm thinking about words like 'Odwalla', etc.

Many of Roscoe Mitchell's compositions carry names resulting from his fascination with "sound". He likes to experiment with verbal sounds as well a musical.

[Johnny E]

That's probably what I should do. I've never been able to "get" this group. I've enjoyed the recordings of some of the members individually, but collectively. . . I've hardly been able to make it through a single lp side. . . But I haven't heard these seminal recordings. . . .

I'd start with 'Sound' by Roscoe Mitchell, then go for a BYG, and by then you'll be begging to plop down the bucks for the Nessa set. Sound is what really opened my ears to what the AEC was doing.

By the way, I just saw the AEC in Seattle last Tuesday. They played at Jazz Alley and it was 'almost' like ol' times. It was Moye, Mitchell, Favors, Jarman, and a young trumpet player named Cory Wilkes I believe. It was fantastic! It's good to hear Roscoe with a trumpet again. I traded one of our CD's for one of Don Moye's CD's. Had a little chat. They are all such approachable guys.

I saw them a few years back when Roscoe was ill. It was just a trio (Bowie, Favors and Moye). Lester really stepped up that night and they dedicated the whole show to Mitchell. In retrospect it was a very special show, getting to see Bowie alone in front. I miss his playing.

[John L]

Great thread, people! Nice stories all around.

Yes, the AEC were very special live. I had the fortune to see them once in the 80s and once in the 90s. Are there any good videos around of vintage concerts?

Somebody must have had the sense to capture the whole deal live at least once.

[Tom Storer]

I was lucky, I saw them many times. But I have to say that when I saw them earlier this year - Mitchell, Jarman, Favors and Moye - it was kind of discouraging. They themselves seemed depressed, and the concert seemed kind of rote. Maybe it was being back in Paris (where they started, I believe) without Bowie.

That said, it was a hell of lot better than the opening act, a group doing an ossified version of 70's free jazz that just flat out sucked. Even on an off night and lacking Lester, the AEC was clearly the real deal whereas the others just didn't cut the mustard.

So one Cory Wilkes joined them on trumpet recently? That ought to be interesting. Never heard of the guy - I'll have to Google him...

Google reveals that his first name is spelled "Corey," he's from Chicago, and he's on "Song For My Sister" by Roscoe Mitchell & the Note Factory. AMG says:

"Corey Wilkes grew up immersed in the sounds of Blues, R&B, Soul, Funk and Jazz. At the age of 10, he picked up the trumpet for the first time. Starting with the school band, Corey's natural talent immediately began to shine. He dominated his peers in both group and solo competitions, always taking first place. To make a very very long story short, Corey is currently one of the hottest trumpeters in the country. In August 2003 Corey appeared on all 3 stages at the 25th Annual Chicago Jazz Fest in Grant Park, including the Petrillo Bandshell. In the same month, Wilkes made news at the 24th Annual Ford Detroit Trumpet Summit on 2 stages. He's recorded numerous CDs, from Jazz to Hip Hop. Corey has shared the stage with numerous jazz heavyweights including Roscoe Mitchell, Marcus Belgrave, Roy Hargrove, Mulgrew Miller, and Wynton Marsalis just to name a few. In the year ahead, look forward to hearing Corey's sinewy notes at more fests, concerts, and clubs around the midwest. In addition to that, Corey will be touring in France in January 2004 with the legendary reedist Ernest Dawkins."

And his site is here.

[JSngry]

I see that Mr. Wilkes is introducing yet ANOTHER Fred Jackson to the jazz world!

http://www.coreywilkes.com/sightssounds.htm

[Johnny E]

I was lucky, I saw them many times. But I have to say that when I saw them earlier this year - Mitchell, Jarman, Favors and Moye - it was kind of discouraging. They themselves seemed depressed, and the concert seemed kind of rote. Maybe it was being back in Paris (where they started, I believe) without Bowie.

Well of course you know they started in Chicago (dah).

They did recordings under their own names for Delmark (Sound, Song For, As If It Were the Seasons) and a series of recordings with our own Chuck Nessa (Old/Quartet, Numbers 1 & 2, and Congliptious). But they didn't get international acclaim (or acclaim at all frankly) until they went to France in 69'.

[Brandon Burke]

It was mentioned on another thread a few weeks ago but don't overlook the AEoC with Brigitte Fontaine on 'COME A LA RADIO'.

One of my favorite records regardless of genre.

[Parkertown]

Hey! That's on emusic.com . Only a couple days left before I cancel my subscription. I'm gettin' this one right now!

Thanks for the rec!

[blue lake]

From what I've heard from people who where there, the Art Ensemble filled the autidorium at the University of Chicago before they left for France. Their following was in Chicago, but it wasn't "small," as in reaching to break 100 people in the audience. They were already on their way.

[brownie]

A highly recommended AEC reissue is the 'Pathe Session' CD which was part of the 'Americans Swinging in Paris' series that came out last year. This has two of the Art Ensemble best albums: 'People in Sorrow' and 'Les Stances a Sophie' which they recorded in the weeks that followed their arrival in Paris in 1969.

I was at the first concert they gave in Paris at the Centre Culturel Americain and caught them at a series of concerts they gave at the Cafe Lucernaire. Innovative, provocative and humorous concerts, these were. They really shook Paris at the time.

[Alexander Hawkins]

Thanks for all these comments! It's fascinating to read all these - just what I was hoping for!

I agree about that Pathe release - I think 'People in Sorrow' is perhaps my favourite AEC work at present.

[Simon Weil]

All of those early records of the AEOC (or related) have something special about them, but, for me, People in Sorrow has always stood out as 'great'. I've got a LP copy on Nessa and just bought the Pathe Masters one.

It just has that weight.

Simon Weil

[Tom Storer]

Well of course you know they started in Chicago (dah). 

They did recordings under their own names for Delmark (Sound, Song For, As If It Were the Seasons) and a series of recordings with our own Chuck Nessa (Old/Quartet, Numbers 1 & 2, and Congliptious).  But they didn't get international acclaim (or acclaim at all frankly) until they went to France in 69'.

Well, I did suspect they had some connection to Chicago.

But isn't it when they were in Paris that they hooked up with Don Moye, took the name Art Ensemble of Chicago, and began their career as a quintet?

Edited November 7, 2003 by Tom Storer

[Parkertown]

Hey! That's on emusic.com . Only a couple days left before I cancel my subscription. I'm gettin' this one right now!

Thanks for the rec!

Hey, this is really cool!

This board RULES!!!

B)

[Clunky]

Of the single discs the Pathe sessions really take some beating but for a deeper and better documented look the stunning Nessa set is every bit as good as JSngry and others have said. I've not had it long but it's a keeper and a grower.

Edited November 7, 2003 by Clunky

[king ubu]

I love the Nessa set, too! I've had it for several years (it was one of my first Trueblue purchases). Otherwise, I've not yet started continuing my AEOC exploration very much further. I picked up a CD reissue by 1201, called "Spiritual", and then that italian magazine called "Musica Jazz" (I don't know whether it still exists, it's been several months since I last saw it) had a concert (one of the last ones with Bowie, but without Jarman) added to one number.

ubu

[paul secor]

Just a short AEC anecdote: I only heard and saw them live once, in the winter of 1980 at an Albany, N.Y. college (probably RPI, but I'm not sure). It was the evening when the underdog U.S. Olympic hockey team played the Russian team for the gold medal. At one point late in the concert, one of the Art Ensemble musicians, perhaps Lester Bowie, who had gone offstage, returned and announced, "The U.S. won the gold medal!", eliciting cheers from the crowd. At the time it struck me as odd that musicians would have an interest in a sports event, but it made me realize that musicians are not just musicians, they're people with many of the same interests as the rest of us. Perhaps that's something that should be obvious, but I had a tendency to see musicians only as musicians, and not think about the lives they lived when they weren't playing music.

The music and performance that night were great, but when I look back, the hockey announcement incident possibly had a greater affect on me than the music.

Edited November 8, 2003 by paul secor

[John L]

But isn't it when they were in Paris that they hooked up with Don Moye, took the name Art Ensemble of Chicago, and began their career as a quintet?

Well, yes, except not in that order. They took the name "Art Ensemble of Chicago" in Paris as a quartet before Moye joined. They made several albums in Paris as a quartet.

Chuck writes on the cover of his box that the name "Art Ensemble" dates back to a December, 1966 concert. As I understand (correct me if I'm wrong, somebody), the original Art Ensemble was also a quartet but with drums (Philip Wilson) and without Jarman. That is the group that plays on the first "basement tapes" from 1967 in the box set.

Edited November 8, 2003 by John L

[JohnS]

The Pathe sessions are essential. Two concert recordings I particularly like are the "Live In Japan" on DIW and "Live In Berlin" on West Wind. Also worth seeking out is "Phase One" from their time in Paris for it's storming version of "Ohnedaruth".

My avatar comes from the ensemble's first Lonon concert, a magical evening. And man, how Moye and Favors can swing.

Edited November 8, 2003 by JohnS