"Shaw Nuff" intro question

[Larry Kart]

Whence cometh the prancing-on-tiptoes intro to "Shaw Nuff"? Sounds kind of mock-Spanish, like a bullfight-associated thing that ought to be from "Carmen" or something else by Bizet, but I've never been able to pin it down. Probably it's from another 19th Century piece that used to be played on a lot of parlor pianos but is now obscure. Any ideas?

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp4BpN-YMck

[JSngry]

I hear what you're getting at, but I've never known it to be ascribed as anything other than Gillespie's own creation.

[Swinging Swede]

[Spontooneous]

I've wondered the same thing, Larry. Or maybe it's some old trumpet etude?

[fasstrack]

Whence cometh the prancing-on-tiptoes intro to "Shaw Nuff"? Sounds kind of mock-Spanish, like a bullfight-associated thing that ought to be from "Carmen" or something else by Bizet, but I've never been able to pin it down. Probably it's from another 19th Century piece that used to be played on a lot of parlor pianos but is now obscure. Any ideas?

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp4BpN-YMck

I think you're talking about the 1st 8 bars. It's hard to pin down since a lot of that harmony is culled directly from classical music, especially Chopin and Romanticism generally. The themes could be from anywhere. They're playing in thirds. which is wide open as to influence. That very last fragment of melody of the last 8 does sound like a theme from Carmen, but it's really up for grabs. It ends on a flat 5. You're getting into areas of harmony that are subject to interpretation.

This is all off the top of my head. I'm hearing it in my head, the music's not in front of me.

The last 4 of the intro is pure bebop with the flat 9 or flat 5, have to check, and the syncopation of the last three notes.

It's a hell of an intro any way you slice it.....

Edited April 3, 2009 by fasstrack

[Alexander Hawkins]

Larry - this has been nagging me the last few days since I read it...yes, I agree, it's definitely something well known...I don't think it's Carmen - I did some prepping for a performance of that last month, and it doesn't ring any bells (shame on me if it should...but I'm fairly sure my memory isn't letting me down).

But I had a thought this morning...I can't find my copy just now to check, but could it be something from De Falla's 'El Amor Brujo'? Thinking in particular of the melody in that 4th bar of the trumpet/alto motif in 3rds...

[fasstrack]

Larry - this has been nagging me the last few days since I read it...yes, I agree, it's definitely something well known...I don't think it's Carmen - I did some prepping for a performance of that last month, and it doesn't ring any bells (shame on me if it should...but I'm fairly sure my memory isn't letting me down).

But I had a thought this morning...I can't find my copy just now to check, but could it be something from De Falla's 'El Amor Brujo'? Thinking in particular of the melody in that 4th bar of the trumpet/alto motif in 3rds...

Alexander: I have a feeling that last descending phrase in the 8th bar---dah de dah de daaah (last note held for a whole note tied to a half, I think, then 3 8ths, bah da dah. Too bad we don't have audio, or I'd sing it)---is what's reminding him of Carmen, somewhere from the March of the Toreadors. Maybe I'm wrong. Like I said it could be a lot of things. Look into Falla though, and let us know what you find. It has my ass hooked now.... Edited April 6, 2009 by fasstrack

[Alexander Hawkins]

Hmmm...my brain is scrambled now...if I'm counting these bars right in my head (), I think that's the phrase I think is from the Falla...oh well! Will try to listen to one or other tomorrow if I remember!

[fasstrack]

Hmmm...my brain is scrambled now...if I'm counting these bars right in my head (), I think that's the phrase I think is from the Falla...oh well! Will try to listen to one or other tomorrow if I remember!

I'm embarrassed that I stopped listening to classical. You remind me now to start again. Maybe I could start a side biz: quote recognition

Let us know what you find. I always loved that title by Falla, can't ever remember the music (speaking of scrambled brains).

[AllenLowe]

listen to it on the Billy Berg's recording - a little sloppy, but great chaos!

I played it once at a party and 3 people left the room - the only 40 year old music that could still shock and disturb -

Edited April 7, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Larry Kart]

Foolishly trying to be onomatopoeic:

(rhythm section)

Mop-mop ... bump-diddly-yah

Mop-mop ... bump-diddly-yah

Mop-mop ... bump-diddly-yah

Mop-mop ... bump-diddly-yah

(single piano chord, then horns plus rhythm)

Bump ...

dah-dah-dah-dah/dah-dah-dah-dah/diddly-a-dah

Dah-dah-dah-dah/dah-dah-dah-dah/diddly-a-dah

It's the horns plus rhythm part I'm thinking of.

I listened to clips from "El Amor Brujo" and didn't hear this.

[JSngry]

I hear what you're getting at, but I've never known it to be ascribed as anything other than Gillespie's own creation.

I'm still willing to accept this...

[fasstrack]

I listened to clips from "El Amor Brujo" and didn't hear this.

Maybe that's b/c it's just something Dizzy made up and we're all second guessing and thinking too much. (I've heard Bird actually wrote this and wouldn't be surprised. Even Dizzy said, I'm fairly sure, Bird wrote at least the intro).

[Alexander Hawkins]

I hear what you're getting at, but I've never known it to be ascribed as anything other than Gillespie's own creation.

I'm still willing to accept this...

Spoil sport

[AllenLowe]

how about the intro to Koko?

maybe they got 'em out of The Intro Book -

[JSngry]

how about the intro to Koko?

I started a thread about that years ago, maybe even on Board Krypton, hoping that somebody knew something, but nope.

I'm left to conclude that it's something that came to us through a wormhole, something from, like, the 25th century or something.

[AllenLowe]

these are the questions I shoulda asked Al Haig 30 years ago - though with Al, who knows what he would have said - probably "we found it on the back of a cereal box."

or "the janitor at the session came up with it."

but I will say, as I write this, that he always indicated to me that Dizzy was the major organizing force whenever he was around, showed Haig how to to comp and voice chords - so if I HAD to guess, I would bet that Bird thought of it (let us say conceptualized it) but Dizzy put it together - but that is just a guess -

who wrote the Round Midnight intro?

maybe Tadd Dameron put all this together -

[JSngry]

who wrote the Round Midnight intro?

That's generally credited to Dizzy.

[Fer Urbina]

who wrote the Round Midnight intro?

That's generally credited to Dizzy.

Wasn't it originally the coda he used to play in "I Can't Get Started"? Or was it the other way around?

F

[fasstrack]

how about the intro to Koko?

I started a thread about that years ago, maybe even on Board Krypton, hoping that somebody knew something, but nope.

I'm left to conclude that it's something that came to us through a wormhole, something from, like, the 25th century or something.

Yeah, that's a great mystery, and only for the brave. Very heavy and I've always wondered about it myself. Sonny Stitt recorded it and a few other staunch beboppers had to have tried or even succeeded. It seems like a diminished-scale type phrase in the first 4 bars. You have to use your ear, since there's no piano or bass, only horns and drums. The last notes of the first 8 are pretty out and amazing. The part Bird plays on the recording with Dizzy, the little solo part for a few bars at the intro's end sounds like he's quoting the changes of the tune for a brief minute, but who knows what he was thinking? Pure genius and its like the 9th wonder of the world. Reminds me of a smartass comment by someone or other: 'we don't look at art. Art looks at us'.

And sticks it tongue out, I think, on this one.

Edited April 10, 2009 by fasstrack