*** Tyrone Washington Corner ***

[Chuck Nessa]

After inadvertantly fueling this thread, I thank Lonson for correctly stating my feelings about Tyrone.

I think Larry Kart (after 30+ years I can't deal with Lawrence) stated my feelings/perspective on Henderson as well.

You have to understand the times - when each performance seemed to reveal some new advancement towards more/new beauty. Silly as it sounds today, this was expected (under the current circumstances).

After Judgment and Dialogue we felt betrayed by Bobby Hutcherson. Joe Henderson seemed another link in this chain.

I remember being at a small party in Joseph Jarman's apartment ('66/'67) when he received a call saying the new Blue Notes were at Met Music (the hip store on the south side). We jumped in a car to retrieve Jackie McLean's Right Now.

When we returned and threw the record on the turntable faces sagged. It was a wonderful JM date, but seemed to be a half step back. We were a tough audience.

[Soul Stream]

After inadvertantly fueling this thread, I thank Lonson for correctly stating my feelings about Tyrone.

I think Larry Kart (after 30+ years I can't deal with Lawrence) stated my feelings/perspective on Henderson as well.

You have to understand the times - when each performance seemed to reveal some new advancement towards more/new beauty. Silly as it sounds today, this was expected (under the current circumstances).

After Judgment and Dialogue we felt betrayed by Bobby Hutcherson. Joe Henderson seemed another link in this chain.

I remember being at a small party in Joseph Jarman's apartment ('66/'67) when he received a call saying the new Blue Notes were at Met Music (the hip store on the south side). We jumped in a car to retrieve Jackie McLean's Right Now.

When we returned and threw the record on the turntable faces sagged. It was a wonderful JM date, but seemed to be a half step back. We were a tough audience.

Wow. A totally revealing insight into the times. Thanks Chuck. The thought of those Blue Notes coming into a record shop, totally unheard by the general public. And the thought of cats actually WAITING for them with anticipation. Oh, to think of a time when this stuff was happening right then. I can only imagine.

[Larry Kart]

Chuck, I feel funny about "Lawrence" too, and for the life of me I can't remember why or when I switched back to the name on my driver's license, checkbook, etc. It might have had something to do with the chapter I wrote for "The Oxford Companion To Jazz" several years ago, because that's the way it is there, but I don't think anybody has ever called me "Lawrence" other than a traffic cop. Maybe there's time to change back before it's too late.

[jazzbo]

It would be nice to see this album come out as an RVG or perhaps a Conn. I really like the blend here of the mainstream and the beyond the mainstream. On this and the other lps of his that I have heard Tyrone tries this type of mix with a success for ME. Not for everyone, sure, but it works for me very much. If it were more available (maybe through Water, which has done a great job reissuing the Eddie Gale Blue Notes, and the Byard Lancaster Vortex, and I hope more to come) I could enjoy seeing if this mix worked for some of these other fellow travelers as well. (The Eddie Gales were a similar attempt at a mix, which I also find works well for me).

That time and beyond, when rock artists were filling stadiums and Elvis was king of Las Vegas . . . how bleak it must have seen for anyone seriously considering jazz as the focus for their art and a part of their identity. Pressures certianly damped the possibilities that a Dialog or Judgment would appear. . . . Jazz players and producers must have really felt at sea, and not liking the options they saw ("Look of Love" or "Super Blue" anyone?)

The times they were a-changing, and things changed. . . .

Edited November 12, 2003 by jazzbo

[DrJ]

ROOTS (Perception Records, 1973) was the later one I was trying to recall earlier. I dig that one, think it's quite a bit more successful than NATURAL ESSENCE although certainly a lot more obscure. I find that one a lot more reminiscent of the adventurous BN Eddie Gales.

[blue lake]

Coming in late to the party: checked in a couple of days ago, but wow: great thread. Haven't read into all of it, but wanted to add that Henderson's trio with George Mraz and Al Foster played in Kalamazoo a couple of years before Joe Hen's end and it was all about color, the whole night, as if the lead voice was secondary to ensemble color and texture. Great melodies, too, many of his favorites -- but he'd wait until midway or to the end of the numbers to announce them, to play the melody outright.

As for modern players with Henderson's influence I heard a solo tonight by Tony Malaby on bassist Mario Pavone's cd "Orange" that was dealing with outside/inside duality of Henderson's approach, elaborating with abandon (on the cut "Goorootoo") and getting up into the harmonic embroidery until it led to pure sound. A worthy extension.

[jazzbo]

Tony, yes, the material we had of the Gales were cdrs from tapes of lps. . . not the best sound possible! These Water reissues sound fantastic. I think they are more successful because they have such a variety of percussion and voices, and the musicians (singers included) are usig a broader palette of styles to choose from.

I really like Natural Essence for succeding using a tighter weave from fewer thread colors. . . . And I really respond to Washington's playing, in every instance that I have heard it, but here on his prestigious label leader date it's front and center and satisfying.

Anyway, I'm betting you'll really like the Water reissues.

[couw]

Wow. If anyone ever wondered about the value of this place, they need only read this thread. HOW MANY TIMES does one get to witness the likes of Lawrence Kart, Chuck Nessa and Jim Sangrey (and others) debate and discuss the musicianship of Tyrone Washington and Joe Henderson, with such a combined degree of knowledge, understanding and historical perspective? Not bloody many times! Thank you, all of you, for your insights on this music we all hold so close to our hearts and minds.

yes, thanks to all who contributed their wisdom to this thread. I didn't have much time to read it online, so I downloaded this and the Rollins thread and read it all at home.

[Larry Kart]

Lazaro -- I hear the same JH-related thing in Malaby as you do, but most of the time it nearly drives me crazy. One perhaps revealing example is the way he and the leader play on Dave Ballou's 2001 Steeplechase album "On This Day," where all the pieces were supposedly improvised from scratch. But the results essentially consist of everyone, especially Malaby, laying down such a carpet of harmonic ambiguity (apparently in this case in the name of potentially making everything "fit") that what you mostly get is all this dial-twisting, side-slipping, "after you Alfonse, after you Gaston" soup -- actually stating what I'd call an idea is almost impossible. I've heard all the horns involved, esp. Ballou and Billy Drewes, sound much "freer" when they were playing in a less "free" context. Another player heavily influenced by JH, for good or ill, is Rich Perry, who when he was a newcomer to the Thad-Mel band was known as "Little Joe." In Perry's case, what I hear fairly often is that the melodic element of his playing, such as it is, has almost nothing to to do with note to note relationships i.e. the lines aren't lines but are essentially moves toward and away from usually quite oblique harmonic nodal points, and that those nodal points, as they line up, are the real melodic element, albeit a rather slow-moving one and one whose relationship to all the notes that have been expended in order to nudge things around harmonically seems sort of...wasteful? Now if there were some sort of, in effect, meaningful contrapuntal relationship between the notes and the harmonic "nodes" (that's how I think Herbie Nichols' music works), you might really have something. But too often what I hear from these guys sounds like fidgeting. The only heaviliy JH-influenced player I know of who shows strong signs of coming out the other side is Mark Shim. Also, now that I think about it, has the permutation-machine aspect of JH we've been talking about been a fairly direct source for what Osby and others have been doing for some time now?

[Rooster_Ties]

Also, now that I think about it, has the permutation-machine aspect of JH we've been talking about been a fairly direct source for what Osby and others have been doing for some time now?

Well, in some ways - I definitely heard bits of Joe Henderson in Osby's most recent work. Not so much in terms of compositions, but in terms of Osby's approach to soloing.

Same thing with Gary Thomas too, especially in terms of Thomas' deep and dark tone.

[skeith]

I am more in the camp of JSangrey, DR J, and others who are fans of Joe Henderson.

He actually seems to me to be less of a licks player than a lot of other guys out there (and I note that if you compare his solos on the same tunes from different recording they are often quite different) And as for being a "mike" player, I managed to see Joe about a dozen times and in small clubs (such as Fat Tuesday's in Manhattan), he often turned away from the mike or else seemed to be completely unconcerned about whether the bell of the horn was on the mike and he filled up the room at all times.

I can't get into a big analysis of why I think he's so great, others are more intelligent and articulate, but I can't get with the devaluation of the man.

[mikeweil]

When we returned and threw the record on the turntable faces sagged. It was a wonderful JM date, but seemed to be a half step back. We were a tough audience.

Isn't this something taht can be observed in the musical development of many musicians? I rememeber being thrilled by the adventurous music of Herbie Hancock's Sextet (immediately before Headhunters) and Buster Williams and Eddie Henderson now play a lot more conservatively than they used too. Billy Hart and Bennie Maupin stayed on this level, Herbie too, although he went into many directions, only Julian Priester advanced as far as stylistics are concerned.

Same goes for many, not all of the hardbop generation. After reaching a certain age most seem to prefer to stay on familiar or established territory.

This may have to do with the taste or policy of record labels and/or producers. Did Alfred Lion actually like the more advanced stuff he produced? Same goes for Cuscuna, whose tastes seem to become more conservative over the years. This is a complex subject to discuss.

I saw Joe Henderson several times as he toured Germany almost every year before his Verve success (met him personally when he came to gig I played in a club that wanted to book him) but never with sidemen as good as Mraz or Foster - he had good people, but they were not up to par with him, so a certain sameness crept in. I liked him best when confronted with new challenges or sounds, like a Jazz meets Flamenco concert at the German Jazz Festival, or the record with Alice Coltrane or Luis Gasca on Milestone. There he plays things nobody else could have done. Nobody!

[connoisseur series500]

I can't get into a big analysis of why I think he's so great, others are more intelligent and articulate, but I can't get with the devaluation of the man.

I can't either. He's one of my favorites.

[Chuck Nessa]

Isn't this something that can be observed in the musical development of many musicians? I rememeber being thrilled by the adventurous music of Herbie Hancock's Sextet (immediately before Headhunters) and Buster Williams and Eddie Henderson now play a lot more conservatively than they used too. Billy Hart and Bennie Maupin stayed on this level, Herbie too, although he went into many directions, only Julian Priester advanced as far as stylistics are concerned.

Same goes for many, not all of the hardbop generation. After reaching a certain age most seem to prefer to stay on familiar or established territory.

This may have to do with  the taste or policy of record labels and/or producers. Did Alfred Lion actually like the more advanced stuff he produced? Same goes for Cuscuna, whose tastes seem to become more conservative over the years. This is a complex subject to discuss.

You ignore commercial considerations.

[mikeweil]

You ignore commercial considerations.

My sentence:

This may have to do with  the taste or policy of record labels and/or producers.

was meant to include this.

[Chuck Nessa]

You ignore commercial considerations.

My sentence:

This may have to do with  the taste or policy of record labels and/or producers.

was meant to include this.

I meant a broader area than this - you can't lay a musician's commercial decisions at the feet of labels/producers. Availability of gigs has something to do with it too.

In today's conservative musical scene, it would take a very strong individual to strike out in new directions. Most musicians do what they can, only a select few individuals are willing or able to "follow their muse".

[mikeweil]

In today's conservative musical scene, it would take a very strong individual to strike out in new directions. Most musicians do what they can, only a select few individuals are willing or able to "follow their muse".

Now I get what you wanted to say and fully agree with this. But didn't it always takle strong individuals to follow one's path without compromise?

Or, to view things from a different angle: Once you've reached total freedom of musical expression, everything you do has to sound conservative after that. That's what happened to Stravinskij after "Le Sacre du Printemps", he had broken all conventional boundaries of his time, and either was afraid of the consequences himself or didn't see any further development in that direction. Are Coltrane's last quartet recordings (Stellar Regions) more conservative or just the quest for a new direction? More "conservative" on the surface does not automatically mean "less progressive". Perhaps you can unfold your own personal vision better by taking a step "back"?

This is not criticize Chuck's or anyone's views, just an attempt to complement them.

[mikeweil]

After Judgment and Dialogue we felt betrayed by Bobby Hutcherson. Joe Henderson seemed another link in this chain.

I remember being at a small party in Joseph Jarman's apartment ('66/'67) when he received a call saying the new Blue Notes were at Met Music (the hip store on the south side). We jumped in a car to retrieve Jackie McLean's Right Now.

When we returned and threw the record on the turntable faces sagged. It was a wonderful JM date, but seemed to be a half step back. We were a tough audience.

Chuck, could you please elaborate on this, or did I overlook some your comments on this earlier in this thread? Thanks a lot!

Edited November 12, 2003 by mikeweil

[mikeweil]

Hardly seemed to be a headline grabber, if you know what I mean. I think he, at root, was a cat who really wanted nothing more out of life than a good reed, a good buzz, and a good rhythm section (not necessarily always in that order), no matter where they were or who heard it when they were there. This I can relate to. Quite a bit, actually.

From what I grasped of his personality in my short conversation with him, this is on point.

[Larry Kart]

Mike-- I don't think that "afraid of the consequences" in your "Once you've reached total freedom of musical expression, everything you do has to sound conservative after that. That's what happened to Stravinskij after "Le Sacre du Printemps", he had broken all conventional boundaries of his time, and either was afraid of the consequences himself or didn't see any further development in that direction" is a fair or accurate reading of the music that S. came up with in the '20s or of how and why he came up with it. "Didn't see any further development in that direction" is more likely, but even then I'd rather emphasize S's fierce "make it new" curiosity/inventiveness. I don't think that works like, say, the Octet, Symphonies of Wind Instruments, "Les Noces" or "Oedipus Rex" shows signs of being less urgently or less personally produced than ""Le Sacre" was. Less shocking to the public, yes, but that's not S's fault.

[Rooster_Ties]

What a thread!!!

*** Tyrone Washington Corner ***, Joe Henderson's merit? - and Stravinsky!!

[Soul Stream]

Isn't this something that can be observed in the musical development of many musicians? I rememeber being thrilled by the adventurous music of Herbie Hancock's Sextet (immediately before Headhunters) and Buster Williams and Eddie Henderson now play a lot more conservatively than they used too. Billy Hart and Bennie Maupin stayed on this level, Herbie too, although he went into many directions, only Julian Priester advanced as far as stylistics are concerned.

Same goes for many, not all of the hardbop generation. After reaching a certain age most seem to prefer to stay on familiar or established territory.

This may have to do with  the taste or policy of record labels and/or producers. Did Alfred Lion actually like the more advanced stuff he produced? Same goes for Cuscuna, whose tastes seem to become more conservative over the years. This is a complex subject to discuss.

You ignore commercial considerations.

This is what I find amazing. Even a great jazz musician playing in a conventional style may, and often does, have trouble finding steady work. What about those playing outside? I can't imagine that being an easy road in many, many ways. Not in the least, how do you survive financially?

For every "successful" unconventional musician, Andrew Hill, Larry Young, Lester Bowie, ect., how many others' contributions aren't recognized because their offerings were smothered early on. Or were never accepted.

George Braith comes to mind as someone I know first hand. Outside of his limited recognition from the Blue Note years, he's virtually forgotten. Despite the fact that he constantly writes and records new material (in his living room). W/o a label or live playing support, it's a pretty tough row to hoe imho.

[Chuck Nessa]

After Judgment and Dialogue we felt betrayed by Bobby Hutcherson. Joe Henderson seemed another link in this chain.

I remember being at a small party in Joseph Jarman's apartment ('66/'67) when he received a call saying the new Blue Notes were at Met Music (the hip store on the south side). We jumped in a car to retrieve Jackie McLean's Right Now.

When we returned and threw the record on the turntable faces sagged. It was a wonderful JM date, but seemed to be a half step back. We were a tough audience.

Chuck, could you please elaborate on this, or did I overlook some your comments on this earlier in this thread? Thanks a lot!

Not sure what you want elaborated. I thought the earlier unquoted portion of the post set these sentences up, but.........

Maybe my meaning will be clearer if you go back to Kart's post beginning with 'Jim, when you say, "I wonder how much of our differing views on the cat is chronological in nature," you're right.'

[mikeweil]

Chuck, I happened to revisit these posts just a few moments ago - I understand better now.

[Tom Storer]

In today's conservative musical scene, it would take a very strong individual to strike out in new directions. Most musicians do what they can, only a select few individuals are willing or able to "follow their muse".

I would add "in the long term." There are many who are doing it at any given time, but a lack of career and money-earning possibilities means that the majority, as they grow older and take on family obligations, or become frustrated by toiling in obscurity for zero money, eventually feel obliged to give up the muse thing. Or maybe find a new muse who's easier to live with.