Francis Davis Wins Grammy

[Chalupa]

"Cliff Engelwood": "Agreed, but implying that someone is a paedophile is very much in keeping with the type of person that, even though I’ve never met him, I’m sure Allen is, kinda like Clem but without the shred of talent and a lot more bile and bitterness.

Now where was I, yes, Grammy awards for Allen;

'Best stone throwing inhabitant of a glass house.'

'Highest number of talked about new projects that will never be completed (or even started).'

'Largest number namedrops per pointless anecdote.'

'Oldest A.D.D. sufferer ever.'"

I don't know what happened between you guys (assuming that a guy is hiding behind "Cliff Englewood"), but Allan does not hide his identity, he has accomplishments that should be admired rather than flippantly dismissed, and he is a nice, admirably knowledgable person. I can say that, because I have met Allan.

What we seem to have here is a typical cyber conflict of a kind that probably would not have occurred without the anonymity factor. I have been party to such pixel-based flapdoodles myself. Some are irreconcilable, but most eventually fall victim to civility. Of course it does not help that we are on a board that tolerates extreme name-calling and slander from such cowardly mirror-kissing wannabes as the one who calls him/herself "youmustbe", so it is, apparently, up to us, the ordinary posters to maintain civility at the Big O. In the case of that poster, I see little hope, the hate is simply too ingrained, but neither of you guys have even come close to the gutter "youmustbe" splashes around in. Personally, I deeply regret the times when I stepped over the line, and I try to learn from such dumb experiences, but it takes two to really get back on the right track.

Now where is my copy of "The Dubilin Tune"?

I don’t really see how hiding one’s identity has anything to do with anything really, when I registered I noticed that a lot of people were using slightly amusing jazz related pseudonyms so I thought I’d join in the fun, it’s a jazz bulletin board I wasn’t expecting to be posting anything I would be held legally accountable for.

So regardless of whether Allen does or does not hide his identity, and maybe he has accomplishments that should be admired rather than flippantly dismissed but perhaps Allan should consider this angle himself. I would say a large percentage of what he posts is flippantly dismissing other people’s accomplishments. This is odd considering how sensitive he is and how he reacts when someone does the same to him. Or even worse, not take him seriously. This thread is flippantly dismissing other people’s accomplishments, or hadn’t you noticed. Just because Francis Davis doesn’t post here that makes it ok I suppose.

I’m glad you’ve met Allan and like him, it’s good that he has a friend, but nice? I don’t know. To me nice is someone like Alec, who discovered that his local Newbury was selling a Rollins box set cheap and then posted in the “Offering and Looking For... that he would buy as many of them as he could and sell them at cost to whoever sent him a PM. He didn’t have to do it, but he did, that is a really nice thing to do. Can’t really see Allen doing anything like that, however he will spend time starting pointless threads like this one, the gist of which is, “Francis Davis is a dick for doing the liner notes to the new reissue of Kind of Blue and is an even bigger dick for winning a Grammy for it and then became a total dick for accepting it”. Not only that but also post a pretty much similar comment in an existing thread regarding the new reissue of Kind of Blue. If it bothers you that much Allen, write the guy a letter. Personally I can’t imagine anyone with even a vague amount of intelligence giving the Grammys a second thought, let alone being upset by someone winning one.

I don’t have any type of cyber conflict with Allen, or anyone for that matter, and I don’t think the anonymity factor had anything to do with it either. I merely made a half jokey, half serious comment in another thread where he was again flippantly dismissing other people’s accomplishments, that he has a tendency to go on and on about trivial details. He never seemed to get over it, sent me lots of really stupid pms and kind of stalked all my posts to add even more stupid comments, the paedophilia one was a new childish low(e). Whatever, if that’s how the guy gets his kicks good luck to him. I would have hoped anyone approaching 60 would be a bit more mature and would make better use of their 5 posts per day.

What I object to most is people using this board as a personal blog, In this day and age it’s really not that difficult to start one, if that floats your boat, but what I enjoy about this board is the sharing of information, reviews of material, buying stuff I would be able to get elsewhere at a great price etc, etc. Not the same board members who are constantly bitching and whining about other people who may have had more success and a higher profile in a field they would like to work in, e.g. Allen and Clem. If that’s what you want to do, start a blog.

Ummm, you do realize that Francis and Allen are very good friends, don't you?

[Cliff Englewood]

Ummm, you do realize that Francis and Allen are very good friends, don't you?

I don't care, it's hardly just this thread I'm refering to.

Edited February 15, 2009 by Cliff Englewood

[medjuck]

Can’t really see Allen doing anything like that, however he will spend time starting pointless threads like this one, the gist of which is, “Francis Davis is a dick for doing the liner notes to the new reissue of Kind of Blue and is an even bigger dick for winning a Grammy for it and then became a total dick for accepting it”. Not only that but also post a pretty much similar comment in an existing thread regarding the new reissue of Kind of Blue. If it bothers you that much Allen, write the guy a letter. Personally I can’t imagine anyone with even a vague amount of intelligence giving the Grammys a second thought, let alone being upset by someone winning one.

I must have missed something in this thread. I thought his congratulations were sincere. Am I just being naive as usual? Has something been deleted?

BTW I just read the notes. They're pretty good.

Edited February 15, 2009 by medjuck

[AllenLowe]

1) I was sincerely congratulating Francis, yes, he is a great writer and deserving of the award -

2) I regret a bad joke I made earlier which, after being called on by Christiern, I edited -

3) Englewood and I do not get along, true - basically the origin of our conflict was in the thread about my interview with Wynton in which, gratuitously, he posted about what a bore (boor) I was and that, omigod, we were now going to have to listen to another boring and pompous Allen Lowe thread and we would never hear the end of it because it was the annoying and pretentious Allen Lowe going on again about himself -

needless to say, I was somewhat insulted by his remarks which I felt were rude and un-called for. And not really accurate.

because I am what I would call mildly OCD and possessed of a strange sense of humor I have taken the opportunity to remind him of his rudeness at every available opportunity.

it ain't the Hatfields and the McCoys, but it is what it is.......

Edited February 15, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Adam]

I’m glad you’ve met Allan and like him, it’s good that he has a friend, but nice? I don’t know. To me nice is someone like Alec, who discovered that his local Newbury was selling a Rollins box set cheap and then posted in the “Offering and Looking For... that he would buy as many of them as he could and sell them at cost to whoever sent him a PM. He didn’t have to do it, but he did, that is a really nice thing to do. Can’t really see Allen doing anything like that, however he will spend time starting pointless threads like this one, the gist of which is, “Francis Davis is a dick for doing the liner notes to the new reissue of Kind of Blue and is an even bigger dick for winning a Grammy for it and then became a total dick for accepting it”. Not only that but also post a pretty much similar comment in an existing thread regarding the new reissue of Kind of Blue. If it bothers you that much Allen, write the guy a letter. Personally I can’t imagine anyone with even a vague amount of intelligence giving the Grammys a second thought, let alone being upset by someone winning one.

I don’t have any type of cyber conflict with Allen, or anyone for that matter, and I don’t think the anonymity factor had anything to do with it either. I merely made a half jokey, half serious comment in another thread where he was again flippantly dismissing other people’s accomplishments, that he has a tendency to go on and on about trivial details. He never seemed to get over it, sent me lots of really stupid pms and kind of stalked all my posts to add even more stupid comments, the paedophilia one was a new childish low(e). Whatever, if that’s how the guy gets his kicks good luck to him. I would have hoped anyone approaching 60 would be a bit more mature and would make better use of their 5 posts per day.

What I object to most is people using this board as a personal blog, In this day and age it’s really not that difficult to start one, if that floats your boat, but what I enjoy about this board is the sharing of information, reviews of material, buying stuff I would be able to get elsewhere at a great price etc, etc. Not the same board members who are constantly bitching and whining about other people who may have had more success and a higher profile in a field they would like to work in, e.g. Allen and Clem. If that’s what you want to do, start a blog.

Hi,

I think you totally mis-read Allen's original post, which came across to me as sincere, and I also fully believe his further statement that he was sincere in making it.

I also think that Allen does make nice offers like Alec's (and Alec's was truly above and beyond...) - I've been the recipient of gifts from him.

I also think that most of Allen's humorous posts and sarcasm comes across with the humor with which it is intended, and I laugh and don't take them seriously. And I think you over-react to many of his posts at this time, and should avoid taking the bait (as should everyone).

And it doesn't feel to me like he is making this board his personal blog. If that accusation could be made of anyone, it's JSangry, and I don't even feel that it comes across that way from him.

In short, I think youa nd Allen have gotten caught up in nastier bickering which makes both of you look bad, and you both have mostly been been better than that. So I hope that you will both please get past it real soon.

Edited February 15, 2009 by Adam

[AllenLowe]

"And it doesn't feel to me like he is making this board his personal blog."

Adam, you're using up my bandwith -

Edited February 15, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Christiern]

I also did not read Allen's post as a critique of Francis. Having myself been wrongly labeled "bitter" here on more than one occasion, by more than one disgruntled poster, let me say that I have once or twice had an inkling that—if there was any bitterness—it plagued the accuser rather than the accused. Of course, I may be totally wrong and the grapes are probably ripened to perfection,but let me say that Francis was a fellow contributor to Stereo Reviewduring the latter part of my years there, that he and I had pleasant conversations at the magazine's annual dinners and award ceremonies, that I like his writing, and I don't think anyone involved in this thread envies his win.

That said, I may send him my Guide to Keeping Your Grammys Sparkling.

[Chuck Nessa]

Must admit I preferred Francis as Mrs. Miles Davis to Mr. Terry Gross. Much better than Betty or Bette.

I may have made a mistake but that woman earned a couple of grammys.

[AllenLowe]

yes, I am somewhat bewildered that anything I wrote was construed as jealousy or bitterness; I have known Francis for 20 years and count him as a friend. He is unusual in a critic of his stature; he lacks any shred of pompousness or self-importance. I have read virtually everything he's ever written. He is one of the few critics (I count Larry K. here as another) whose opinions, when they differ from mine, send me back to the source to see where I've gone wrong -

[Chuck Nessa]

What Mr Lowe said.

[Shrdlu]

Doodness Gwacious guys! (Tweetie, Warner Bros). Lighten up.

[AllenLowe]

th-th-th-th-th-that's all, folks -

[Cliff Englewood]

I think I'll reserve the right to continue thinking that Allen is a bit of a dick if that's o.k. with everyone, but I will definitely check out his movie when it's eventually released.

[7/4]

Surely you guys could drag this out for a couple of more days!

[AllenLowe]

"I think I'll reserve the right to continue thinking that Allen is a bit of a dick if that's o.k. with everyone"

ahh, gracious to the very end -

still, in the interests of peace, and since Passover is coming up, I have send Cliff a private and reconciliatory email -

Edited February 16, 2009 by AllenLowe

[7/4]

Let's see if I can add something so this gains a bit of momentum....

Allen...your avatar is a dog.

dB

[AllenLowe]

hey, that's a picture of my wife, you cur -

pick your weapon, see you in Rahway at dawn -

Edited February 16, 2009 by AllenLowe

[7/4]

It's a war of words Lowe...she's looking well fed and has a very shiny coat.

[JSngry]

Re: Davis, I think his earlier writing was - and remains -superb. In The Moment & Outcats remain "must reads" in my estimation. But then he started....getting "soft" or something. I found Bebop & Nothingness to be essentially a casual, "breezy" read, and Like Young to be thoroughly disposable, not because it was "bad" or "wrong", but just because it was....disposable. Since then, I've read a few Atlantic items that have been well-written but not particularly insightful, certainly not as much as the earlier writings. I've not read the liners to the new KOB, simply because I've not bought it yet, probably won't, jsut don't reel the need, but really, what is there left to be said about it anyway at this point?

I think that what's probably happened with him, as it has with many people, including most of us here, is that as life goes on and as other interests and responsibilities take hold, that near-obsessive passion that drives so so many of us into thinking/believing that THIS MUSIC IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD kinda gets tempered by the influx of parallel truths and realities that are usually pretty damn hard to ignore. The edge gets lost. And it's not just Davis, it's damn near everybody who puts their opinions and interests on display as a matter of professional ambition (as well as those who don't, for that matter...). Stanley Dance, Dan Morgenstern, maybe a few others are the rare exceptions. Everybody else, it seems that they lock into a "postition" fairly early on, and spend the rest of their lives reiterating it without a whole helluva lot of variations of either nuance (Morgenstern) or perspective (Dance, who in his non-American writings shows peeps of not being nearly the ideologue that one might believe based on his usual American output).

To put things in perspective, I have long marveled at how Larry Kart has usually managed to keep his edge over the years. As I've gotten to know him better these last few years, I realize that for him, jazz was but one of many things to which he applied his unique gifts of dissection and analysis. So it's not like he became this "jazz critic" who locked into one narrow POV early on and kept it as his Personal Brand Identification. If he had/has a PBI, it's as The Man Who Always Thinks About Everything. Not just jazz, EVERYTHING. I thinking that between his natural inclinations and his career/ongoing requirements with a daily newspaper, that the kind of drifting off into PBI Protectionland (you know, the type of writing where everything is presented through The Lens Of What You Know The Writer Already Thinks And They Never Let You Forget What That "Is" Is Or That That's Why You "Care" About What They Have To Say In The First Place) just was not in the cards for him, and that neither he nor us are not at all bothered that it wasn't.

Maybe it's because that with music in and of itself, there's really not that much to say once you've figured it out. Plenty to do, mind you, just not that much to say, not about it as a unique entity not relevant to the greater flow of life. And that's where a lot of "critics" run out of gas - they either can't/won't make the connection to the "bigger beyond", or else their view of it is as confused/simplistic/naive/doctrinaire/idiosyncratic as that of the rest of us, and suddenly they become no different than the rest of us, and hell, there goes the window of opportunity for imposing Awe In The Face Of Genius, if you know what I mean.

I do think that Davis has lost his edge as a critic, somebody whom I feel compelled to read to give me something to consider that I would otherwise not have. Apparently life has been very good to him and his, and hell, what kind of an asshole would I be if I wished it hadn't if it meant him keeping that critical edge & continuing to produce the penetrating writings of those early years. Which is not to say that he has lost his natural smarts or his stylistic gifts as a writer, or that he can/should be dismissed as never having been all that in the first place. Clearly he was. But I'm just not compelled to give too much of a damn about what he has to say any more. And I mean that totally without rancor or disrespect, and with the most sincere congratulations and best wishes for whatever time on earth he has left.

Edited February 16, 2009 by JSngry

[Christiern]

Stop being so bitter, Jim!

[JSngry]

Bitter?

Dude, I'm so sweet that sugar puts me in its coffee!

[AllenLowe]

well, I disagree about Francis' stuff; one reason I think that he has remained sharp and on-target is that he is not over-exposed as so many critics are, he is prolific enough but picks and chooses, doesn't write just to write, as seems to be the case so much (and which is one reason I shied away from music journalism). I was thinking this about one particular rock critic whom I think is brilliant and sometimes exactly on the money, but sometimes sloppy and strangely obtuse, And then I realized how much this guy has put out over the years, and it's probably largely because he had to do what he did to make a living in the way that he was making a living. But I find that Francis' work is more measured, he doesn't take this scatter-shot approach. He writes plenty but he takes enough time about it.

[JSngry]

Hey, one man's french fries is another man's hash browns.

Either way, it's all potatoes in the beginning and in the end. What happens in between is pretty much personal.

[JSngry]

I also think that for most critics, writing about a music such as jazz, a music that for the most part has become "past" either literally or by implication, that it's almost impossible not to include some "nostalgia" one way or the other, to pursue the path of one's initial impressions deeper and farther. and since the past does not evolve, only our perception of it, then it's too easy to develop an "outlook" that is really nothing too much more than a scrapbook that one refurbishes on occasion. And not just jazz, but any personal intercourse with any series of real-time events that eventually become "history".

That's certainly not ignoble, nor is it shameful. Certainly not, in that it is all but unavoidable unless one exerts a truly....focused, perhaps even abnormal or even detrimental effort into doing so, and given the aforementioned impact that the rest of life has on all of us, hey...good luck on that one! I'm just saying that it's one thing to write about, say, Warne Marsh or Jackie McLean or Duke Ellington or Albert Ayler or...anybody, when they are alive, functioning, and still hold the potential to pose real-time challenges any minute now, and another thing to write about them 25-50-100 years after it's all over and they have done all that they are going to do. One dynamic all but requires in reality a sharpness, a level of deep engagement, that the other only calls for in principle, and really, one that might be all but impossible to attain for "normal" adult human beings with real, multifaceted lives built up over years of deep engagement with other things, all of which are important, but not necessarily "musical".

So in one sense, yeah, it's all good. But in another sense, some is better than other, and for me, it's that which is "in the moment" (to cheesily use a Davis reference...), not manufactured upon reflection. And yeah, true reflection is a grand thing, but in all honesty, in these days and times, in this culture, in this system of risks and rewards, true reflection, deep reflection that is the product of long, solitary self-confrontations, is an all but lost art, especially as a commercial enterprise.

[Cliff Englewood]

"I think I'll reserve the right to continue thinking that Allen is a bit of a dick if that's o.k. with everyone"

ahh, gracious to the very end -

still, in the interests of peace, and since Passover is coming up, I have send Cliff a private and reconciliatory email -

Well as I got bored with all your previous borderline retarded mails, I have blocked your pms and you don't have my e-mail address, so I won't, nor have I any interest in receiving "a private and reconciliatory email", as I said I don't really have a beef with you, I just think you're a bit of a dick.