Inside/Outside

[montg]

I've been really enjoying Dewey Redman's 'The Struggle Continues" the last few months. I'm looking for more dates like that (not necessarily from Redman), but finding it hard to know where to look. I know the inside/out characterization can be kind of hard to pin down, but I'm basically looking for stuff (post-1970--the BN material is obvious) that is similar to recordings I really love (the Redman date, Billy Harper/ Soul of an Angel, Arthur Blythe/Lenox Ave. Breakdown, David Murray Octet/For Trane, Roy Campbell/Akhenaten Suite, Billy Bang/Vietmanm: The Aftermath). Thanks for suggestions

[blajay]

I think this thread has some related suggestions: http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=1604

[CJ Shearn]

Jack DeJohnette: Special Edition with both Murray and Blythe. I'd classify the music as inside/outside, but a fair portion of it is pretty out, such as "One For Eric" and "Journey to the Twin Planet. Most of the acoustic things Herbie and Wayne have done in the past decade, Kurt Rosenwinkel's latest too. Kenny Garrett, "Beyond the Wall", Brad Mehldau "Live in Tokyo", "Trio Live", I forgot as far as ECM goes, Pat Metheny: "80/81", which is a brilliant date in his catalog, great playing and tunes from everybody.

Edited January 8, 2009 by CJ Shearn

[randyhersom]

George Adams! The Don Pullen Mosaic Select is a good place to start, I'm alsp particularly fond of Hand to Hand.

The Keith Jarrett (American) Quartet releases on Impulse have much of Dewey's greatest work.

[Guest Bill Barton]

And let us not forget George Adams' Paradise Space Shuttle with Ron aka Rahn Burton on the piano bench. The version of "Metamorphosis for Mingus" on this one is flat-out incredible.

[BFrank]

As long as we're talking Adams/Pullen, you should definitely look into Mingus' "Changes One", "Changes Two" and "Mingus Moves".

[AndrewHill]

Too lazy to look, but I think Sam Rivers' Crystals should qualify. Turns out that its one of my favorite Rivers sessions!

[kh1958]

The Moffett Family Jazz Band--Magic of Love and Africano, on Venus.

[BruceH]

Too lazy to look, but I think Sam Rivers' Crystals should qualify. Turns out that its one of my favorite Rivers sessions!

When someone says "inside/outside" with respect to jazz, I usually think of Rivers.

[ep1str0phy]

Too lazy to look, but I think Sam Rivers' Crystals should qualify. Turns out that its one of my favorite Rivers sessions!

When someone says "inside/outside" with respect to jazz, I usually think of Rivers.

Maybe not "free" in the total sense, but "Crystals" is dense and harmonically adventurous enough to classify, I think, as much more outside than inside. I don't think I'd say the same about his more recent big band dates (Inspiration and Culmination) as those arrangements are as a whole less dissonant and, maybe due to the treatment of rhythm and the electric bass, a lot funkier--and probably more accessible--than the Impulse stuff.

I think Sam's small group music is on the whole easier to digest than stuff like Crystals--but it goes both ways. The Tuba Trio stuff sounds like a cross between Ornette-style pianoless freebop and, for lack of a better comparison, burnout... but thanks to Sam's solo contributions, that stuff is pretty aggressively out there. On the other hand, his discs on ECM (Contrasts and Dave Holland's Conference of the Birds) and largely more reined-in technically, less sprawling, and somewhat easier to follow.

But then you look at something like Portrait (solo, on FMP), which is at times as dissonant as the harshest energy music and at others as cerebral and pointillistic as the most abstract European improvisation, and the Tuba Trio music comes across as a lot less mystifying.

Recently I've come to engage more with free improvisation as an element/device among or in the music of artists with strong compositional identities--and not so much as a procedural imperative (although the most thoughtful and "hard-won" music born out of this conception is almost uniformly brilliant--Derek Bailey for example)--and much, much less as a "genre" or "type" of music. I think Rivers is a perfect example of that--but hell, so are the Blue Notes, Roscoe Mitchell, Andrew Hill, Horace Tapscott, and even unrepentantly "outside" figures like Masayuki Takayanagi, Kaoru Abe, (later) Tetuzi Akiyama (who have all engaged in music with strong fixed elements).

[papsrus]

Too lazy to look, but I think Sam Rivers' Crystals should qualify. Turns out that its one of my favorite Rivers sessions!

When someone says "inside/outside" with respect to jazz, I usually think of Rivers.

Maybe not "free" in the total sense, but "Crystals" is dense and harmonically adventurous enough to classify, I think, as much more outside than inside. I don't think I'd say the same about his more recent big band dates (Inspiration and Culmination) as those arrangements are as a whole less dissonant and, maybe due to the treatment of rhythm and the electric bass, a lot funkier--and probably more accessible--than the Impulse stuff.

I think Sam's small group music is on the whole easier to digest than stuff like Crystals--but it goes both ways. The Tuba Trio stuff sounds like a cross between Ornette-style pianoless freebop and, for lack of a better comparison, burnout... but thanks to Sam's solo contributions, that stuff is pretty aggressively out there. On the other hand, his discs on ECM (Contrasts and Dave Holland's Conference of the Birds) and largely more reined-in technically, less sprawling, and somewhat easier to follow.

But then you look at something like Portrait (solo, on FMP), which is at times as dissonant as the harshest energy music and at others as cerebral and pointillistic as the most abstract European improvisation, and the Tuba Trio music comes across as a lot less mystifying.

Recently I've come to engage more with free improvisation as an element/device among or in the music of artists with strong compositional identities--and not so much as a procedural imperative (although the most thoughtful and "hard-won" music born out of this conception is almost uniformly brilliant--Derek Bailey for example)--and much, much less as a "genre" or "type" of music. I think Rivers is a perfect example of that--but hell, so are the Blue Notes, Roscoe Mitchell, Andrew Hill, Horace Tapscott, and even unrepentantly "outside" figures like Masayuki Takayanagi, Kaoru Abe, (later) Tetuzi Akiyama (who have all engaged in music with strong fixed elements).

Thanks for those thoughts. Excellent, and had me scurrying off to see if I could find Sam Rivers Tuba Trio. And I agree fully with the notion of free improvisation as an element within strong compositional frameworks.

[ep1str0phy]

Damn--well, I think the Tuba Trio stuff is out of print (please someone correct me because that never seems to be the case or not the case for long, status always changing and whatnot). The closest thing available is Waves:

-with Dave Holland, Joe Daley, and Thurman Barker. The ensemble sound is in general less raw and a deal muddier than the Tuba Trio stuff, simply because of the cramped bottom end (Holland and Daley being equally muscley on this recording). Good individual contributions, though.

And for that matter--early Braxton fits in here, sharing a lot of personnel with the Sam Rivers of this period. The Mosaic box is the place to find a lot of the best of this material, hell it is to plunk down for.

Also along these lines (hard freebop) is the music of the Mike Osborne/Harry Miller/Louis Moholo trio, of which Border Crossing is presently the best thing available. Here's a "one final note" on the album: <Border Crossing + Joe Harriott> This is very aggressive but eminently accessible music in an extended modal/post-bop context.

For whatever reason my mind is all over this right now, if you'll forgive the run-on post. But featuring Braxton and Muhal Richard Abrams and performing some very exploratory originals in what is ultimately an amalgamated free/modal vein is Woody Shaw's The Iron Men, last easily domestically available (I think) on the Two More Pieces of the Puzzle 32-Jazz twofer. It's available as a single on Japanese import now, but I would highly, highly recommend tracking down the twofer for the Concert Ensemble recording it's paired with (something I'm actually a little partial to).

[papsrus]

For whatever reason my mind is all over this right now, if you'll forgive the run-on post. But featuring Braxton and Muhal Richard Abrams and performing some very exploratory originals in what is ultimately an amalgamated free/modal vein is Woody Shaw's The Iron Men, last easily domestically available (I think) on the Two More Pieces of the Puzzle 32-Jazz twofer. It's available as a single on Japanese import now, but I would highly, highly recommend tracking down the twofer for the Concert Ensemble recording it's paired with (something I'm actually a little partial to).

On your enthusiasm, now have Shaw's "Two More Pieces of the Puzzle" on order. Thanks for the great insights.

[Guest Bill Barton]

For whatever reason my mind is all over this right now, if you'll forgive the run-on post. But featuring Braxton and Muhal Richard Abrams and performing some very exploratory originals in what is ultimately an amalgamated free/modal vein is Woody Shaw's The Iron Men, last easily domestically available (I think) on the Two More Pieces of the Puzzle 32-Jazz twofer. It's available as a single on Japanese import now, but I would highly, highly recommend tracking down the twofer for the Concert Ensemble recording it's paired with (something I'm actually a little partial to).

On your enthusiasm, now have Shaw's "Two More Pieces of the Puzzle" on order. Thanks for the great insights.

You're gonna like that one a lot. It's an amazing compilation. Not a dull moment to be heard...

[king ubu]

That Mike Osborne twofer "Border Crossing" is great, I find!

A favourite Rivers album (vinyl) of mine is "Paragon", a trio with Holland/Altschul (Fluid 101).

Also "Rendez-vous", a pairing with Mario Schiano, one of Italy's finest of the border-crossing kind, is pretty good (Vedette VPA 8375, vinyl again, also with Holland/Altschul).

[king ubu]

Oh, and yes - the Impulse material of the Jarrett American Quartet is great indeed! Pretty intense often!

I don't have the ECM material (one album, two?) but I assume the sound alone makes for a rather different listening experience...

[ep1str0phy]

Paragon rocks. I like how rough the Tuba Trio stuff is, but the Rivers + Holland and Altschul is great.

I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but Zorn, George Lewis, and Bill Frisell's trio disc News for Lulu actually fits in this category pretty well. The music is comprised of pretty creatively arranged readings of hard bop classics, mixing in some free blowing and "out" passages. Zorn's alto playing is surprisingly warm on this disc, which amazed me upon first hearing (considering how strident he usually is). Frisell's time impresses me a lot, too. Lewis ranges from good to awesome all the time, so that goes without saying...

[AndrewHill]

Thinking of Hat Hut, Joe McPhee, I think fits the bill here too, especially Linear B, Eyes and Old Mysteries and Topology.

[king ubu]

I guess the wonderful Colin Vallon trio would fit the bill as well. "Ailleurs" on hatOLOGY:

Also Malcolm Braff's trios (the other one being the group BraffOesterRohrer):

This is piano in I guess various traditions, Randy Weston would be an obvious point of reference, even more since Alex Blake is on this one, but Braff is his own man, methinks, and a marvellous pianist!

[Tony Pusey]

Must get some new glasses-I thought this thread read Outside Inside, post Blue Cheer....

[six string]

And let us not forget George Adams' Paradise Space Shuttle with Ron aka Rahn Burton on the piano bench. The version of "Metamorphosis for Mingus" on this one is flat-out incredible.

Now I have to mention one of my favorite George Adams records on ECM, Sound Suggestions.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

George Braith is the man!!!!

MG