Art Blakey Indestructible RVG

[Jerry]

This is turning out to be my favorite of the last couple of batches of reissues. The last few connoisseurs were very good, but somehow Indestructible seems to be hitting the rotation more than all of them. What a great record. I think it is now my favorite Blakey record. The writing points the way to both later Freddie Hubbard and Lee Morgan, but also to where Shorter would soon go with Miles.

[DrJ]

I've long been trumpeting this album and this configuration (or, close to it, with Hubbard in place of Morgan) as a Blakey band for the ages. INDESTRUCTIBLE! and the equally remarkable FREE FOR ALL combine an incredible drive and grit with superior compositions and thoughtful (yet heated) playing like few other vintage era hard bop jazz albums I can think of. I'm really stoked that this RVG is getting more people into a classic record, and hope FREE FOR ALL appears in that series REAL soon...I believe I saw also that BUHAINA'S DELIGHT and maybe MOSAIC are going to be RVG'd, which is fine too - although I must say, for me, neither of these quite reaches the intensity of the others I've already lauded.

[Shrdlu]

It's a superb album, Jerry! So are "Mosaic" and "Free For All". I've played those many times since I first got the LPs, and I would never tire of them. There's so much to enjoy. I love the quintet sessions with Lee and Wayne, but the addition of Curtis Fuller's trombone makes a huge difference all round. The balance is just perfect.

I don't like the sound on the JRVG of "Mosaic" - Wayne sounds very off-mike. So I hope the RVG, if made, will be better. The TOCJ is good.

[Guy Berger]

It's a superb album, Jerry! So are "Mosaic" and "Free For All". I've played those many times since I first got the LPs, and I would never tire of them. There's so much to enjoy. I love the quintet sessions with Lee and Wayne, but the addition of Curtis Fuller's trombone makes a huge difference all round. The balance is just perfect.

And also, Cedar Walton was a major upgrade over Bobby Timmons.

Guy

[Brad]

Guy,

That depends on your point of view and your leanings. Of all pianists he he had in his Blue Note period, I'd have to go with Bobby T. I like that funky sounds. Cedar Walton is, obviously, quite different. It's obviously a different sound but my favorite versions of the late 50s to early 60s JMs is when Bobby Timmons was there.

[Soul Stream]

I dig this one most of all as well. Why...well, I think Curtis Fuller is the secret weapon here.

[Morganized]

I have enjoyed this one immensely. I couldn't tell if it was simply because I was not previously familar with the record or what. I think you hit on it for me. Free for All has always been one of my favorite Blakely's. I love that lineup and it is the same one here. This collection of Messengers has a high degree of energy and creativity IMO. I guess I just really like the lineup and the fact that the music was new to me only makes it that much better.

[Shrdlu]

I think Cedar was an upgrade, too, Guy. His sound is very smooth and subtle, and is an important factor on many a session - such as "Mode For Joe".

I didn't like Timmons back in the 60s, mainly because I think his block chord passages are ugly, unlike Red's, which I really love. But, when I got the Mosaic Blakey set, most of which I had never heard before, I really enjoyed Bobby there, largely because he avoids the block chords for the most part. And then, with the explosion of CD reissues making it possible to hear BN sessions which were very hard (if not impossible) to find in the LP days, I have liked Bobby's contribution to those.

[Guy Berger]

I think Cedar was an upgrade, too, Guy. His sound is very smooth and subtle, and is an important factor on many a session - such as "Mode For Joe".

Shrdlu,

I totally agree -- Cedar was also more versatile and less prone to cliches than Bobby (though I enjoy many of Bobby's contributions to the '58-'61 group). I also like his contributions as a composer better.

That said, on "Mode for Joe" I think Herbie Hancock or McCoy Tyner would have been an upgrade over Cedar.

Guy

[Brad]

I think we're comparing to apples to oranges if you're talking about Bobby Timmons v. Walton here. I was trying to frame the issue in terms of their association with Art Blakey on Blue Note. After Benny Golson reformed the Messengers in 1958, Bobby Timmons was an integral part of the sound that they produced on over 13 albums until his departure in 1961. Heck, he was an integral part of the hard bop sound with lasting contributions like Moanin' and Dat Dere. His was a funkier, bluesier sound. His sound contributed to some great live albums.

Art liked to change direction and the group that he formed after 1961 with Cedar Walton, who was on six BN sessions and four of what are now Fantasy labels, produced quite a different sound, a more advanced sound.

So I think it's wrong to lump them together when speaking of Art's BN dates since by the mid 60s Timmons was long gone.

I wouldn't say one's better or worse, just a different sound. If pushed to pick, I'd pick Bobby from that period. I just like the way he plays and naturally love that style. With Cedar Walton, it takes a while for me to warm up to him. I've gotten to like it some but not as much as Mr. Timmons.

[JSngry]

Nobody has any opinions as to Reggie Workman vs Jymie Merrit?

Personally, I think the "difference" on INDESTRUCTABLE is twofold. #1 = Lee. Him and Wayne always had a chemistry. As hot as Freddie was at the time, Lee was FIERY, and Freddie himself admotted as much a few years later. With Blakey, Hubbard lit many fires, but Lee lit them and poured gasoline on them, just to be sure.

#2 - the material. No emphasis on arrangements or other complexities here, just simple structures designed for hard blowing. My two favorite tunes here, "The Egyptian" & "Mr. Jin" are based on the kind of rhythmic centered vamps similar to what Trane was into, and Blake carpe diemed like a mofo. This stuff played right into his hands, and the band responded in kind.

It's my favorite Blakey record, period, and one of my favorite BNs as well. When the desert island comes to call, it'll have to wait until I pack INDESTRUCTABLE.

[clinthopson]

'Free For All" probably my all-time favorite Bu but it's closely followed by "Indestrucitible," the Birdland and Cafe Bohemia live discs, "3 Blind Mice" 1 & 2, and. . .

Wotthell, I love virtually every thing that my #1 jazz hero did.

Edited December 1, 2003 by clinthopson

[Soul Stream]

Nobody has any opinions as to Reggie Workman vs Jymie Merrit?

Personally, I think the "difference" on INDESTRUCTABLE is twofold. #1 = Lee. Him and Wayne always had a chemistry. As hot as Freddie was at the time, Lee was FIERY, and Freddie himself admotted as much a few years later. With Blakey, Hubbard lit many fires, but Lee lit them and poured gasoline on them, just to be sure.

#2 - the material. No emphasis on arrangements or other complexities here, just simple structures designed for hard blowing. My two favorite tunes here, "The Egyptian" & "Mr. Jin" are based on the kind of rhythmic centered vamps similar to what Trane was into, and Blake carpe diemed like a mofo. This stuff played right into his hands, and the band responded in kind.

It's my favorite Blakey record, period, and one of my favorite BNs as well. When the desert island comes to call, it'll have to wait until I pack INDESTRUCTABLE.

I'm someone that always listens to the bass first and foremost. To me, Reggie brings a more open feel to the proceedings. He's not afraid to take the bass out of a strict timekeeper role. Yet, that said, he always make the time felt. Plus, he wasn't about to be bullied around by Blakey. He was his own man with a concept of his own. For him to play like he did against Blakey on "Free For All",...well, that's just some bad shit. And his open conception makes "Indestructible" possible. He's just about as good as it gets imho. Plus, I really dig his dark sound.

Jymie Merrit is a big gun. He is THE Messenger bassist. Strict time with no bs was his signature. He played with a lot of blues bands and it comes through. He shifted his style somewhat depending on the group of Mssngrs., but always locked it down with Blakey without being run over by the boss. His solo on "Moanin'" alone puts him in the Hall Of Fame. I know Jymie is still alive...is he still playing...active?

....By the way...has anybody besides myself noticed the closeness of "Indestructible" to Granchan Moncur III's "Evolution?" Especially "The Egyptian" and "Sortie" to "The Coaster." Maybe Fuller was hip to Grachan's writing style at this point. "Evolution" was made in 63, "Indestructible" in 64. Fuller's soloing even SOUNDS like Grachan to me here. The writing is VERY similar.

Edited December 1, 2003 by Soul Stream

[couw]

....By the way...has anybody besides myself noticed the closeness of "Indestructible" to Granchan Moncur III's "Evolution?" Especially "The Egyptian" and "Sortie" to "The Coaster." Maybe Fuller was hip to Grachan's writing style at this point. "Evolution" was made in 63, "Indestructible" in 64. Fuller's soloing even SOUNDS like Grachan to me here. The writing is VERY similar.

interesting notion. If I find time I'll spin them both and listen for similarities.

[CJ Shearn]

interesting comment about Workman. To me on "Indestructible" the way he goes about using pedal points, double stops, and general other abstractions, reminds me of Ron Carter, but with those techniques filtered through a very individual thing. Just the general climate of bass playing around then I guess

[Morganized]

....By the way...has anybody besides myself noticed the closeness of "Indestructible" to Granchan Moncur III's "Evolution?" Especially "The Egyptian" and "Sortie" to "The Coaster." Maybe Fuller was hip to Grachan's writing style at this point. "Evolution" was made in 63, "Indestructible" in 64. Fuller's soloing even SOUNDS like Grachan to me here. The writing is VERY similar.

Interesting notion indeed, Soulstream. This is why I enjoy this board. I plan to dig both of these out and give them a listen. I love to compare how players incorporated new ideas into their own work.

Thanks Soulstream.

[JSngry]

Re: Workman vs Merrit, I find myself preferring Reggie's tone to Merritt's - bigger, fatter. more bottom. I think his pitch is better, too. Perhaps a better fit for the more intricate music that the band played with him as a member than Merrit would have been. Still, Merrit carved his thing in stone, and that ain't easy.

Bottom line for me - they both blessed us with their contributions.

[Noj]

Great discussion about a great album. Second only to MOANIN' as far as Art Blakey albums I've heard (and I haven't heard nearly enough).

The sound quality on this one is noticeably good even to my inexperienced ears.

Was anyone following The Jazz Messengers when the lineup was changing? Was it big news in the jazz community whenever it changed?

I haven't heard Moncur's EVOLUTION, now I wish I had it.

[Soul Stream]

Re: Workman vs Merrit, I find myself preferring Reggie's tone to Merritt's - bigger, fatter. more bottom. I think his pitch is better, too. Perhaps a better fit for the more intricate music that the band played with him as a member than Merrit would have been. Still, Merrit carved his thing in stone, and that ain't easy.

Bottom line for me - they both blessed us with their contributions.

Reggie really brought that whole 'Trane thang with him into the Messengers. I can't imagine Jymie on those sessions, although I'm sure he would have been great, but the music wouldn't have been different obviously. Just a case in point about how the Mssgrs. were always a BAND. The Mssgrs' sound changed with each new member. In drastic ways but always consistent with Blakey's message so to speak.

I would love to see Reggie play. Him and Garrison are so strong in my mind.

[CJ Shearn]

very interesting comments on Workman vs. Merritt. I haven't heard enough of Workman's playing on a consistent basis to judge, but I feel that Jymie, compared with his days in the JM's, when he was playing with Lee on the Lighthouse date, there was a definite growth in his laying from time keeper, to a looser sort of style, but the solid time keeping has to be considered with the JM's heavily groove based approach when he was in the band. On "Live at the Lighthouse", Merritt's playing IMO is stylistically in the same zone as Carter, Garrisson or LaFaro in that he was freeing up the more conventional 1-2-3-4 method of playing in favor of picking out notes in the mode, and playing against the momentum, with a drummer like DeJohnette on "Speedball" pushing the hell out of the rhythm section with his broken swinging and constant dialogue with the soloists, I don't think a typical walking pattern would have worked as well, although, the way the tune was being played calls for these sort of techniques. Still, both Reggie and Jymie were great for the roles they served with Art and each contribution is valuable in their own ways.

Edited December 3, 2003 by CJ Shearn

[blue-note-ojc]

I have the nonRVG disc of Indestructible and have been wondering if the RVG version is an improvement. My old one does have the bonus track, but I am curious about the sound quality. Any significant difference?

Thanks for any help.

Tom

[Big Al]

Geez, I'm surprised I didn't respond the first time around. This is a fantastic album from my favorite lineup of Messengers. I agree with Soul Stream: Fuller is the secret weapon here, adding another hue to an already colorful palette. I can't wait to get FREE FOR ALL and BUHAINA'S DELIGHT, and wish they would upgrade MOSAIC, as that's my favorite album from this lineup!

[MartyJazz]

Geez, I'm surprised I didn't respond the first time around. This is a fantastic album from my favorite lineup of Messengers. I agree with Soul Stream: Fuller is the secret weapon here, adding another hue to an already colorful palette. I can't wait to get FREE FOR ALL and BUHAINA'S DELIGHT, and wish they would upgrade MOSAIC, as that's my favorite album from this lineup!

I have an original MOSAIC Blue Note LP I copped in the early '60s. Still my favorite Blakey recording of all time. Terrific record - "Arabia" and "Children of the Night" knock me out every time. Normally loathe to "upgrade" my CDs, especially as they already duplicate what I have on LP, I might make an exception in this case.

[Big Al]

I have an original MOSAIC Blue Note LP I copped in the early '60s. Still my favorite Blakey recording of all time. Terrific record - "Arabia" and "Children of the Night" knock me out every time. Normally loathe to "upgrade" my CDs, especially as they already duplicate what I have on LP, I might make an exception in this case.

I also have an original LP; belonged to my Dad. He gave it to me when I started listening to jazz. In fact, it is THE record that introduced me to jazz. Never picked up the current CD issue, cuz Dad’s old LP sounded pretty good, and the CD of FFA put me off getting MOSAIC on CD.

[AmirBagachelles]

I agree that Indestructible and Free for All are the standards for that JM era w/ Fuller. But I have to add my little plug for the Impulse record they cut. I think it's really good, and A La Mode is a minor classic.