Coltrane Japanese reissue advice needed

[riverrat]

Looking to fill some holes in my Coltrane line-up, with these two titles.

Which reissues should I look for? Seems as though there have been quite a few...I have a couple of the 24-bit WPCR series, which I like. Are these the way to go?

[RiRiIII]

I second this request!

I have these Cds as Rhino's mid-90s deluxe reissues. Also the 80s LPs.

Alex

Looking to fill some holes in my Coltrane line-up, with these two titles.

Which reissues should I look for? Seems as though there have been quite a few...I have a couple of the 24-bit WPCR series, which I like. Are these the way to go?

[MichL]

Hi:

For what its worth Steve Hoffman thinks the plain regular issues are the way to go, because these are flat transferes of the tapes. Most if not all the masters were distroyed in a vault fire and so any remaster is using a stereo dup of some kind. You can search the Hoffman site to get the whole story.

I have some of the mini LP 24 bit Japan reissues. I think they sound very good, somewhat fuller sounding?

I think MFT sounds good, but prefer the original remaster. The piano sounds crisper not as soft as the mini LP. I think the mini LP OLE edges out the original, though it is quite good. The mini LPs are certainly more attractive.

Michael

[Claude]

With most of the comparisions I've done of Atlantic CD reissues (original CD reissue, remaster, japan remaster) from various artists (Coltrane, Mingus, Ornette), it seemed as if the transfers were the same, but only some different choices in frequency manipulation (EQ) were made. No spectacular improvement. For many titles, are found the first CDs to sound better balanced than the remasters. I remember some japanese Mingus remasters which sounded way too bright.

Edited January 7, 2009 by Claude

[J.A.W.]

I'd get the original Atlantic CDs. They're usually pretty cheap and later remasters are no improvements; the Rhino DeLuxe reissues sound worse to my ears and many Japanese remasters sound as if the higher frequencies were boosted. Remember that these Atlantic recordings were no sonic marvels to begin with and any remastering manipulations cannot improve what isn't there. Again, my advice would be to get the originals and enjoy the music

Edited January 7, 2009 by J.A.W.

[jazzbo]

My favorites of the Coltrane Atlantics I've heard are the cds in the Heavyweight Champion box set.

[J.A.W.]

My favorites of the Coltrane Atlantics I've heard are the cds in the Heavyweight Champion box set.

The box is a good alternative if you want more than a few discs. The remastering was done by Gene Paul and the sound is better than on the Rhino DeLuxe series and the many Japanese remasters I've heard.

Edited January 7, 2009 by J.A.W.

[Aggie87]

I think I've asked this before, but don't remember a definitive answer.

Is the mastering on the Heavyweight Champion box the same as the Rhino Deluxe editions that followed? I'm curious because the box includes the "Bags & Trane" album, whereas the Rhino deluxe series doesn't.

Has "Bags & Trane" ever been reissued separately in remastered form?

[J.A.W.]

I think I've asked this before, but don't remember a definitive answer.

Is the mastering on the Heavyweight Champion box the same as the Rhino Deluxe editions that followed? I'm curious because the box includes the "Bags & Trane" album, whereas the Rhino deluxe series doesn't.

The box was remastered by Gene Paul and, if I remember correctly, the Rhino DeLuxe reissues were done by Bill Inglot and Dan Hersch. Many if not all of the original Atlantics were done by Stephen Innocenzi.

Has "Bags & Trane" ever been reissued separately in remastered form?

Not in the United States, at least not as far as I know.

Edited January 7, 2009 by J.A.W.

[paul secor]

Bags & Trane: http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=1096674

[J.A.W.]

Has "Bags & Trane" ever been reissued separately in remastered form?

Bags & Trane: http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=1096674

That's the original CD issue, not a remaster.

Edited January 7, 2009 by J.A.W.

[paul secor]

My bad.

[J.A.W.]

My bad.

No, it's just that Aggie was asking about a remaster, that's all

[Aggie87]

Thanks, I have the original CD issue. I also have all of the Rhino's, though I may eventually replace them with the box.

I think it's unusual that it wasn't included in the Rhino series, if for completeness if nothing else - though I realize it's a co-leader date, not a Coltrane album.

[Clunky]

i've not really had any issues with Atlantic CDs of any vintage , my Coltranes are oldies from the late 80s, I do think the WPCR series from Japan (marking the 60th anniversary) sound very good, sets I've got and enjoy in this series include ..

John Lewis Piano,

West Coast Wailers,

Teddy Charles Tentet,

Afternoon in Paris,

Plenty Plenty Soul,

The Prestidigitator,

Jack Montrose & Bob Gordon

Hear ye !!!

Edited January 7, 2009 by Clunky

[riverrat]

My favorites of the Coltrane Atlantics I've heard are the cds in the Heavyweight Champion box set.

The box is a good alternative if you want more than a few discs. The remastering was done by Gene Paul and the sound is better than on the Rhino DeLuxe series and the many Japanese remasters I've heard.

This is key intel. Perfect excuse to buy the box set. Used price looks to be ~$50.

[RiRiIII]

Yes, "Bags and Trane" was issued in the japanese WPCR series (25108).

Alex

I think I've asked this before, but don't remember a definitive answer.

Is the mastering on the Heavyweight Champion box the same as the Rhino Deluxe editions that followed? I'm curious because the box includes the "Bags & Trane" album, whereas the Rhino deluxe series doesn't.

Has "Bags & Trane" ever been reissued separately in remastered form?

[Late]

I'll throw another opinion into the mix. For Coltrane, I think the first edition Japanese mini-LP series (AMCY) are quite fine. They're in 20-bit, if that matters, but are probably pretty hard to find these days. This series had Warne Marsh's eponymous Atlantic album whereas I don't think the WPCR series does.

I will say that the WPCR of Jimmy Giuffre's 3 is amazing. Highly recommended. Way better than the original domestic CD issue, and better than the Mosaic IMO.

I've never heard the Rhino Coltrane box so I can't make any comparisons there.

[riverrat]

I'll throw another opinion into the mix. For Coltrane, I think the first edition Japanese mini-LP series (AMCY) are quite fine. They're in 20-bit, if that matters, but are probably pretty hard to find these days. This series had Warne Marsh's eponymous Atlantic album whereas I don't think the WPCR series does.

I've never heard the Rhino Coltrane box so I can't make any comparisons there.

I have Ole from that series, based on advice from you in a 5-year old thread! Yes, these are really hard to find now. Hopefully they'll be reissued again. The Rhino box will do in the meantime...

[J.A.W.]

I'll throw another opinion into the mix. For Coltrane, I think the first edition Japanese mini-LP series (AMCY) are quite fine. They're in 20-bit, if that matters, but are probably pretty hard to find these days. This series had Warne Marsh's eponymous Atlantic album whereas I don't think the WPCR series does.

I've never heard the Rhino Coltrane box so I can't make any comparisons there.

I have Ole from that series, based on advice from you in a 5-year old thread! Yes, these are really hard to find now. Hopefully they'll be reissued again. The Rhino box will do in the meantime...

I had many of those Japanese 20-bit K2 Atlantics in mini-LP sleeves. At first I was enthusiastic about the sound until listening fatigue set in each time I listened to them. During a comparison (now years ago) with the first American CD issues the 20-bit K2s turned out to have boosted higher frequencies and, if I remember correctly, some added compression too that may well have been the cause of the listening fatigue. I sold them for very nice prices

I don't have any problems with the originals or the box.

The 20-bit K2s were replaced by the Japanese WPCR Atlantics, so I don't think they'll ever be reissued.

Edited January 9, 2009 by J.A.W.

[Late]

I think you're probably pretty on target with that assessment, Hans. The AMCY of Giant Steps, for example, does seem too "precise" (if that makes any sense) at times on the high end. Maybe that's because of the boosted higher frequency. I don't know for sure (and am not techically savvy enough to find out). On my system, the original U.S. edition sounded somewhat lifeless, and the MFSL edition sounded bloated all out of proportion — very boomy. As we all know, of course, it's just a matter of systems and taste. There will never be a "best," only a "preferred."

I do know that I love a lot of the music that was recorded for Atlantic records. I was exposed to that label (just by chance) long before I heard a record on Blue Note. Atlantic is one label, in general, that makes me wish for my (pretty much gone now) vinyl days.

At any rate, I hope you like the AMCY of Olé, riverrat. The box'll probably be just the ticket. You'll scoop up some WPCRs along the way, I'm sure. If you have any affection for Giuffre, I'd recommend that title before it goes OOP in Japan (whenever that may be). And, it doesn't hurt asking Hiroshi if he happens to see any of the old AMCYs used or new ...

Edited January 9, 2009 by Late

[montg]

Hi:

For what its worth Steve Hoffman thinks the plain regular issues are the way to go, because these are flat transferes of the tapes. Most if not all the masters were distroyed in a vault fire and so any remaster is using a stereo dup of some kind. You can search the Hoffman site to get the whole story.

I have some of the mini LP 24 bit Japan reissues. I think they sound very good, somewhat fuller sounding?

I think MFT sounds good, but prefer the original remaster. The piano sounds crisper not as soft as the mini LP. I think the mini LP OLE edges out the original, though it is quite good. The mini LPs are certainly more attractive.

Michael

I thought that the masters destroyed in the Atlantic fire were mostly limited to alternate takes and unissued material? So the bulk of the Coltrane material should be from original masters?

I bought Ole from the European Atlantic Masters series and it sounds very good to me.

warnerjazz

The Atlantics may have their flaws but in some ways I prefer them to many of the Coltrane Impulse recordings, which rarely sound to me as if they're coming from original masters (compare the Trane reissues to the sound of the BNs also recorded by RVG in the 60s)..the Tranes sound muddy by comparison

[peterintoronto]

Has "Bags & Trane" ever been reissued separately in remastered form?

Bags & Trane: http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=1096674

That's the original CD issue, not a remaster.

Would this fit the bill? It's one of those recent cardboard digipack releases from one or two years ago.

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=6658322

[Shrdlu]

these Atlantic recordings were no sonic marvels to begin with

I agree, Hans. How muddy they sound - as if they were recorded inside a cardboard box. What a shame that those fantastic recordings in 1960 with McCoy and Elvin were done for Atlantic and not Impulse. Elvin's drums are badly muffled and Rudy recorded him so well.