televiper Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 I interviewed Ben Ratliff via e-mail. The final version is up on my blog: http://bopandbeyond.wordpress.com/2009/01/...th-ben-ratliff/ We talk mostly about his musical influences and about his new book: The Jazz Ear Quote
Guest Bill Barton Posted January 6, 2009 Report Posted January 6, 2009 (edited) Thanks for posting this. With the amount of flak Ratliff catches around here it's interesting to have some background on where he "came from." The following passage in particular: "Jazz for me started with a Louis Armstrong Hot Five record someone gave me when I was around 8. I really, really liked 'Cornet Chop Suey.' Someone else gave me a record by the Miles Davis quintet with Coltrane when I was about 14. I knew I was on to something. I played guitar in rock bands. I took one lesson with a jazz teacher. He pointed me toward Joe Pass, whom I didn’t like and still don’t. Meanwhile, live jazz was not available to me in Rockland County in the early 80s, but hardcore punk matinees at CBGBs, 90 minutes away, were. If you squinted really hard, it could lead you to jazz. I think the line of discovery went: Heart Attack, Flipper, Black Flag, Sonic Youth, Albert Ayler, Charlie Parker, Coleman Hawkins, Thelonious Monk, etc. etc. I still see this kind of thing happening. It’s one way in, one of hundreds." Edited January 6, 2009 by Bill Barton Quote
Ken Dryden Posted January 7, 2009 Report Posted January 7, 2009 He still doesn't like Joe Pass and he listened to this junk: Heart Attack, Flipper, Black Flag, Sonic Youth So much for taste... Quote
kenny weir Posted January 7, 2009 Report Posted January 7, 2009 He still doesn't like Joe Pass and he listened to this junk: Heart Attack, Flipper, Black Flag, Sonic Youth So much for taste... Oh please! I don't dig Joe Pass, Heart Attack, Flipper, Black Flag, Sonic Youth AND Ben Ratliff. But I'm not about to confuse my personal opinions on such with some sort of silly overall judgment on the matter of taste. I'm no fan, but Sonic Youth "junk"? Quote
Christiern Posted January 7, 2009 Report Posted January 7, 2009 He is quite possibly the worst jazz writer the NYT has had. Quote
Chas Posted January 7, 2009 Report Posted January 7, 2009 Who pulled this one back in? I believe it was Evan who led the necromancy . Quote
AllenLowe Posted January 7, 2009 Report Posted January 7, 2009 well, I don't like Black Flag but I would not call it junk - as I do like the Butthole Surfers and Big Black - Quote
televiper Posted January 7, 2009 Author Report Posted January 7, 2009 Damn, a lot of haters here. His Jazz Ear book is actually quite good. And who cares if he came to jazz through punk/hardcore/metal? A lot of people did, including me. I appreciate Ben for his open mind and willingness to admit his strengths and weaknesses. Quote
7/4 Posted January 7, 2009 Report Posted January 7, 2009 (edited) Get used to it. I don't usually pay real close attention to who's writing about music, but thanks for letting us know about the interview! dB Edited January 7, 2009 by 7/4 Quote
Tom Storer Posted January 7, 2009 Report Posted January 7, 2009 The following passage in particular: "[...] Meanwhile, live jazz was not available to me in Rockland County in the early 80s, but hardcore punk matinees at CBGBs, 90 minutes away, were. Ratliff was born in 1968. In 1984 he would have been 16. When I was 16, in Westchester, right next door to Rockland County, live jazz was certainly available to me. Me and my pals would go to jazz clubs in Manhattan and were never carded. But maybe things had changed in the ten years separating me from Ratliff, age-wise, or maybe his family moved away earlier than that. Quote
Christiern Posted January 7, 2009 Report Posted January 7, 2009 Ah, those grapes—even more sour than I originally thought. Quote
papsrus Posted January 7, 2009 Report Posted January 7, 2009 ... What's at stake is the idea some douche thinks he can comment on jazz history without working knowledge of western classical that many, if not all, of jazz's best musicians were themselves steeped in. ... "Working knowledge?" OK. "... many if not all of jazz's best musicians were themselves steeped in?" A little fuzzy on that one. How steeped? And what's with the were? Is it over already? You may be 100% correct. Or you may be 100% correct 50% of the time. Big difference, especially as you seem to be hanging your criticism of the guy in large part on this. ("what's at stake ...") Quote
medjuck Posted January 7, 2009 Report Posted January 7, 2009 (edited) Chauncey (Like Clem) seems to dislike anyone with an actual paying gig writing about Jazz. However he may be right. I don't read the NY Times much but I was shocked to see Ratliff recommending a Miles bootleg that consisted of 3 cuts available on Prestige and one cut that doesn't even have Miles on it-- which Ratliff couldn't tell. (This is discussed in a thread under "Discography" but I don't know how to link to threads.) And in defense of Chris there's also a thread here about how influential he was on music people as a dj. (It's in this, the Jazz in Print forum.) Edited January 7, 2009 by medjuck Quote
Guest Bill Barton Posted January 8, 2009 Report Posted January 8, 2009 Chauncey (Like Clem) seems to dislike anyone with an actual paying gig writing about Jazz... Clem doesn't seem to have much use for those with non-paying gigs either. Quote
danasgoodstuff Posted January 8, 2009 Report Posted January 8, 2009 Yes, there are certain things that those writing about music 'professionally' (there's an archaic concept, soon to over, likewise 'positions of influence'), SHOULD KNOW...BUT that's neither necessary nor sufficient for them to be worthwhile as writers or human beings and CM & Clem are the living proof of that... Quote
jon abbey Posted January 9, 2009 Report Posted January 9, 2009 The following passage in particular: "[...] Meanwhile, live jazz was not available to me in Rockland County in the early 80s, but hardcore punk matinees at CBGBs, 90 minutes away, were. Ratliff was born in 1968. In 1984 he would have been 16. When I was 16, in Westchester, right next door to Rockland County, live jazz was certainly available to me. Me and my pals would go to jazz clubs in Manhattan and were never carded. But maybe things had changed in the ten years separating me from Ratliff, age-wise, or maybe his family moved away earlier than that. Ben was DJing at KCR by the time he was a Columbia undergrad, so he was hip to jazz at a pretty young age, especially for a child of the eighties. I know he initially turned me onto Morton Feldman (specifically the For Bunita Marcus on Hat Art), which I'll be forever grateful for. Quote
Aggie87 Posted January 9, 2009 Report Posted January 9, 2009 I think the line of discovery went: Heart Attack, Flipper, Black Flag, Sonic Youth, Albert Ayler, Charlie Parker, Coleman Hawkins, Thelonious Monk, etc. etc. That's an interesting route. I can see getting from Sonic Youth to Ayler, but it seems like another step would be in there before getting to Bird...at least to me. But then WTF do I know. Quote
Rob C Posted January 9, 2009 Report Posted January 9, 2009 I think the line of discovery went: Heart Attack, Flipper, Black Flag, Sonic Youth, Albert Ayler, Charlie Parker, Coleman Hawkins, Thelonious Monk, etc. etc. That's an interesting route. I can see getting from Sonic Youth to Ayler, but it seems like another step would be in there before getting to Bird...at least to me. But then WTF do I know. One of the first jazz records I got was Mingus's Black Saint and the Sinner Lady, and it reminded me of nothing so much in my prior listening experience as Sonic Youth! Quote
A Lark Ascending Posted January 9, 2009 Report Posted January 9, 2009 I enjoyed the Coltrane book, particularly the emphasis on how his music has been received by different audiences. A pity there wasn't a note on the dust jacket instructing me to despise it. Quote
.:.impossible Posted January 9, 2009 Report Posted January 9, 2009 Chauncey = Clem? No one uses the word "insipid" so masterfully. In fact, the word probably hadn't been used at org.org since clem's oft-discussed disappearance. Quote
ep1str0phy Posted January 9, 2009 Report Posted January 9, 2009 Having been away from the initial discussion of Ratliff's bio, I think I came to some of the basic conclusions that lots of other folks here did. I think in all its reductiveness it managed to kill the beautiful leitmotif of the the Porter book (which was that Coltrane spent look periods honing his craft; that ascension to glory or whatnot had a lot to do with sitting down and dealing with the nuts and bolts of the art). Ratliff's focus on Coltrane-as-iconography makes the second half of the book useful, as it deals with musical and critical responses to Trane's music... the first half, though, teeters in the middle of reader's digest mini-bio, insubstantial musical analysis, and some misinformation that could have been easily avoided with an elaborating paragraph or simple fact-checking. Digressing, but--in scholarly circles, actually, I've been told that many African-American scholars actually prefer the J.C. Thomas bio to the Porter. The Thomas bio is easily the most overtly poetic of the Coltrane books and for all its hagiography actually kind of pretty--and I think it complements the second half of the Ratliff bio nicely. Quote
Dan Gould Posted January 12, 2009 Report Posted January 12, 2009 Fwiw, Ratliff is "taking questions": http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/12/business...hetimes.html?hp Did anyone else presume that he was a bit older than 40? And how in the hell did he get the gig at 28? Quote
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