jazzbo Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 That sure sounds like the problem with the early cd! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Wait a second.... you mean Blue Note made the IDENTICAL error as on the earlier CD, but moved it to the end of the disc? If so, then so much for this notion that RVG went back to the original tapes. It sounds like all he did was tweak the old CC disc. Wow. If this is true, what a rip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETman Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Wait a second.... you mean Blue Note made the IDENTICAL error as on the earlier CD, but moved it to the end of the disc? If so, then so much for this notion that RVG went back to the original tapes. It sounds like all he did was tweak the old CC disc. Wow. If this is true, what a rip. Reread my first post on the subject. This disc now has the alternate as track 5. On the old disc it was track 2. The thing that they did the same was tack on the ending of the alternate of "Saturday and Sunday", to the beginning of track 2. This translates as follows: The old disc had the ending of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday tacked to the front of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday. The new RVG has the same ending of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday again tacked to the beginning of track 2, which NOW is Frankenstein. I don't know if this means that all they are doing is tweaking old copies, but there is definitely some sort of disconnect happening at Blue Note. Against my better judgment, I'll comment on sound issues. The sonics on this RVG, IMHO, clearly place third behind the sonics on the Japanese RVG (done in 2000) and the McMastered Moncur Select (done in 2003). Read into this what you want and take it fwiw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swinging Swede Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Or van Gelder is too old and/or hearing-impaired to be up to it any longer (he turns 85 this year after all), so they just take earlier CD releases, like the near-mono Grant's First Stand JRVG or the old domestic One Step Beyond, boost the volume, perhaps tweak it a bit, and slap the RVG tag on it. Perhaps an EMI bean counter ordered this practice in order to cut production costs. It would certainly be a lot cheaper. I can't see what any other explanation could be. Saturday And Sunday was recorded after Frankenstein at the session, so you couldn't get this error by going back to the original master tape. It was only on those early CDs alternate takes were placed directly after their master takes, and the alternate take of Saturday And Sunday therefore came right before Frankenstein. There is no reason those tracks would be adjacent otherwise. And only those early JRVGs had near-mono versions of stereo albums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user0815 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 That sure sounds like the problem with the early cd! well, maybe the original tapes for that album did get some kind of razor blade treatment and that's the reason why the same error pops up again? hey, please, no problems with the two grant & baby face albums! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user0815 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Reread my first post on the subject. This disc now has the alternate as track 5. On the old disc it was track 2. The thing that they did the same was tack on the ending of the alternate of "Saturday and Sunday", to the beginning of track 2. This translates as follows: The old disc had the ending of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday tacked to the front of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday. The new RVG has the same ending of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday again tacked to the beginning of track 2, which NOW is Frankenstein. i have the old tocj of this mclean album. it does not have any alternates. is this one ok? please say, yes! a simple yes is all i need now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Reread my first post on the subject. This disc now has the alternate as track 5. On the old disc it was track 2. The thing that they did the same was tack on the ending of the alternate of "Saturday and Sunday", to the beginning of track 2. This translates as follows: The old disc had the ending of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday tacked to the front of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday. The new RVG has the same ending of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday again tacked to the beginning of track 2, which NOW is Frankenstein. i have the old tocj of this mclean album. it does not have any alternates. is this one ok? please say, yes! a simple yes is all i need now! Yes. I wish I still owned it, I used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETman Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Reread my first post on the subject. This disc now has the alternate as track 5. On the old disc it was track 2. The thing that they did the same was tack on the ending of the alternate of "Saturday and Sunday", to the beginning of track 2. This translates as follows: The old disc had the ending of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday tacked to the front of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday. The new RVG has the same ending of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday again tacked to the beginning of track 2, which NOW is Frankenstein. i have the old tocj of this mclean album. it does not have any alternates. is this one ok? please say, yes! a simple yes is all i need now! Let's just say that I am of the opinion that the Japanese do a much better job with cd production (better stock, beveled edges, etc.). Therefore, having a TOCJ of this album, would definitely not be a bad thing, if you get my drift. My one regret when it comes to my love of jazz is having gotten caught up in the re-re-re-re-issue craze ad infinitum. I fear it might be too late for me. But feel free to save yourself. Run, run away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Wait a second.... you mean Blue Note made the IDENTICAL error as on the earlier CD, but moved it to the end of the disc? If so, then so much for this notion that RVG went back to the original tapes. It sounds like all he did was tweak the old CC disc. Wow. If this is true, what a rip. Reread my first post on the subject. This disc now has the alternate as track 5. On the old disc it was track 2. The thing that they did the same was tack on the ending of the alternate of "Saturday and Sunday", to the beginning of track 2. This translates as follows: The old disc had the ending of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday tacked to the front of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday. The new RVG has the same ending of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday again tacked to the beginning of track 2, which NOW is Frankenstein. I don't know if this means that all they are doing is tweaking old copies, but there is definitely some sort of disconnect happening at Blue Note. I knew what you meant, though I don't believe I communicated it properly. It still bugs me that Blue Note let this come out like that. I bet Swinging Swede is right on the mark in his assessment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETman Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Wait a second.... you mean Blue Note made the IDENTICAL error as on the earlier CD, but moved it to the end of the disc? If so, then so much for this notion that RVG went back to the original tapes. It sounds like all he did was tweak the old CC disc. Wow. If this is true, what a rip. Reread my first post on the subject. This disc now has the alternate as track 5. On the old disc it was track 2. The thing that they did the same was tack on the ending of the alternate of "Saturday and Sunday", to the beginning of track 2. This translates as follows: The old disc had the ending of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday tacked to the front of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday. The new RVG has the same ending of the alternate of Saturday and Sunday again tacked to the beginning of track 2, which NOW is Frankenstein. I don't know if this means that all they are doing is tweaking old copies, but there is definitely some sort of disconnect happening at Blue Note. I knew what you meant, though I don't believe I communicated it properly. It still bugs me that Blue Note let this come out like that. I bet Swinging Swede is right on the mark in his assessment. That's what I infer from the fact that the 2000 remastering in my Japanese RVG sounds better than the 2008 remastering in the new American RVG. However, it also occurs to me that the tapes are 8 years older. Could that account for much more deterioration in sound? Who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Just got my copy in the mail. The error is there as John describes. Possibly some sort of pressing error at the plant? I disagree about the sound, I like the sound. Sound is such a subjective thing, and so system dependent. This does NOT sound like the McMaster transfer was used to me. I haven't compared this RVG to the JRVG but I definitely prefer the sound to the Select version. That's just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETman Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Just got my copy in the mail. The error is there as John describes. Possibly some sort of pressing error at the plant? I disagree about the sound, I like the sound. Sound is such a subjective thing, and so system dependent. This does NOT sound like the McMaster transfer was used to me. I haven't compared this RVG to the JRVG but I definitely prefer the sound to the Select version. That's just me. Well, you suck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 (edited) Nah. Man, that choked big ride cymbal on "Ghost Town" really jumps out in a way I don't remember it ever doing before! Edited February 11, 2009 by jazzbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETman Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Nah. Man, that choked big ride cymbal on "Ghost Town" really jumps out in a way I don't remember it ever doing before! If it did, Rudy did it by mistake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 (edited) Just got my copy in the mail. The error is there as John describes. Possibly some sort of pressing error at the plant? It would have to be an error in the duplication master they sent to the pressing plant. Someone screwed up when saving the audio files (most likely). Edited February 11, 2009 by Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 This is pretty lame and hopefully they will correct it. I have a Liberty LP but it would be nice, if I were to buy a domestic CD of the music, for it not to be jacked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) Remember there are TWO errors on the old McMaster. The end of Saturday and Sunday is tacked on the beginning of the alt, and the end of the alt Sat and Sun is tacked on the beginning of Frankenstein. You feel me on this one? Ironically enough I was going to replace my McMaster with the RVG to get rid of this problem.... but, uhhhhh. Only the last four bars plus hold of the Sat and Sun master are carried over to the alt. Does this occur on the RVG? Then almost the whole restatement of the tune at the end of the alt is carried over to Frankenstein. questions questions Edited February 12, 2009 by David Ayers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgraham333 Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 and I was so looking forward to the UPS man making a delivery tomorrow... So how do we go about getting this fixed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewHill Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Think I'll hold on to the TOCJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 So how do we go about getting this fixed? Send it back and get the Moncur Select instead, while you can? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Send it back and get the Moncur Select instead, while you can? Too late, all gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Has anyone emailed Cuscuna about this yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) My McMaster is the Collector's Choice edition. Back then you didn't return stuff like this since you knew it would never get redone and this was the best you were going to get. This time though maybe people do need to bring these back to the store. I think they will repress this title, but only if there is a stream of returns. The other question is how it happened. It seems very likely that they didn't use the master, which is already bad, but also that nobody actually listened to it before it went out - which sets a question mark against the whole series, really, and begins to explain why some of us find some of these (J)RVGs hard to listen to. I'm still interested to hear whether the errors on the RVG exactly match the two errors on the RMcM... PS FWIW the sound on the RMcM is pretty good - the cymbal on Ghost Town does leap out - so I wonder if they figured, you know... Edited February 12, 2009 by David Ayers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Has anyone emailed Cuscuna about this yet? JETman has a call in to Cuscuna. . .hopefully he'll call back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 So how do we go about getting this fixed? Send it back and get the Moncur Select instead, while you can? It's already too late to get the Moncur Select from Mosaic. Other sources probably have it. I've compared the sonics between the RVG and the Select and I'd always prefer to listen to the RVG: warmer, meatier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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