Latin-American music - why no guitars?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I've bought a big bunch of Latin records in the last couple of months and one thing that is striking about them is that there are no guitarists on the American ones but the guitarists are fairly prominently featured on the African ones. So I did a bit of a search through the other Latin albums I've got and found that only seldom are there guitarists in Latin-American bands - though one big exception is Pucho & the Latin Soul Brothers; but that band didn't work the regular Latin circuit - it performed on the Soul Jazz circuit (it wasn't only organists who played organ rooms ) You get the occasional guitarist forced into Mongo's band when it was recording for Atlantic and that's about it.

On the other hand, guitarists such as Barthelemy Atisso (Orchestre Baobab), Yahya Fall (Star Band No 1 & Pape Fall's African Salsa), Pape Thioune (Pape Fall again) and Baye Sy and Saffirou Dieng (Super Cayor) are all well known and celebrated in Senegal for their work in the idiom.

I'm sure someone here knows why the Latin-American bands have this antipathy towards the guitar.

MG

[seeline]

I'm sure someone here knows why the Latin-American bands have this antipathy towards the guitar.

The short answer is: they don't - the opposite is true. But in big bands and most NYC-style salsa bands, they're not used.

In other styles, 6-string acoustic guitars - and guitar "family" instruments - like the tres (Cuban) and cuatro (Puerto Rican) are used a lot.

And since so many NYC salseros are Puerto Rican, there are many records where cuatro is used. Yomo Toro is probably the best-known contemporary player who's involved in that scene. (He's also recorded with Africando, as well as appearing on some of the charanga albums that producer Jules Sagna made in NYC for the Senegalese market.)

Arsenio Rodriguez was a tresero.

My guess is that you probably would want to look to Afropop.org and other sites (and books) on the history of West and Central African (Congo) pop music for reasons on the prominence of the electric guitar. I'm sure there are practical as well as aesthetic reasons behind some of these choices. (How can you amplify a tres or cuatro enough for it to cut through all the NYC-style brass and percussion?, etc.)

Edited to add: Barbarito Torres (from Cuba) plays the laud (name is derived from Arabic, al-'ud, which is usually translated into French and English as "oud"). You can see and hear him here, with Pio Leyva.

Edited December 26, 2008 by seeline

[kh1958]

Latin-American music to me means music from Mexico, Cuba, Brazil, Argentina, etc.. Guitars are everywhere. You must be listening to what they call Latin-American music in New York, which seems to mostly derive from Puerto Rico. In fact, the center of Latin American music is Mexico City, not Puerto Rico, New York or Miami.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

the charanga albums that producer Jules Sagna made in NYC for the Senegalese market.)

That's a very strange thing - someone in NYC making records for the Senegalese market? They must be nuts! Some details would no doubt be intriguing.

My guess is that you probably would want to look to Afropop.org and other sites (and books) on the history of West and Central African (Congo) pop music for reasons on the prominence of the electric guitar. I'm sure there are practical as well as aesthetic reasons behind some of these choices. (How can you amplify a tres or cuatro enough for it to cut through all the NYC-style brass and percussion?, etc.)

Yes, that would present similar difficulties to amplifying a ngoni or other similar instruments from West Africa. I dare say there are also similar instruments in the Congo/Angola region. And clearly the guitar has advantages there. But those advantages apply to Latin American music, too. I don't think the prominence of the guitar in any part of the world needs explanation; its absence is the oddity. I was expecting someone to come up with something like - the music was developed before amplified guitars came along, so they made do without and never felt the need afterwards. (No idea whether that's anything like true, of course, hence the thread.)

MG

[seeline]

Latin-American music to me means music from Mexico, Cuba, Brazil, Argentina, etc.. Guitars are everywhere.

You're right that guitars (in many different forms, not just our 6 and 12-string instruments) are huge in all of Central and South America.

MG, I think you might want to do a bit more checking around.... I honestly feel that the presence - or absence - of guitars in certain styles has much to do with taste, little to do with what's available. Guitar is a rarity in Domincan merengue, too - in the old country style, accordion and sax are the lead instruments, not guitar; "city style" Dominican merengue uses brass and saxes.

Haitian pop, OTOH, has *lot* of electric guitar - to some extent, that's due to the influence of African pop music from Congo and elsewhere. Same island as the DR, different tastes/styles.

but this is a huge, complex subject, and I only know bits and scraps of information. There are better sources than me, for sure!

Edited December 26, 2008 by seeline

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Latin-American music to me means music from Mexico, Cuba, Brazil, Argentina, etc.. Guitars are everywhere. You must be listening to what they call Latin-American music in New York, which seems to mostly derive from Puerto Rico. In fact, the center of Latin American music is Mexico City, not Puerto Rico, New York or Miami.

Yes, that's what I'm listening to. I've got one Mexican album

But it's that New York Latin American that's influenced Latin African, not Mexican, Peruvian, Brazilian or Agentinan music. Don't forget, many West African musicians went to Cuba for their musical ecucation - including the most influential, Boncana Maiga - since the Soviet Union was providing a lot of support for their governments. And some, like Labah Sosseh, went to Miami. When these and others record in America with American musicians they don't use guitars, but back this side of the Atlantic they do. As you say, the guitar is ubiquitous throughout the Americas - just not in this particular chunk of music.

It's almost as if the American musicians (most were actually born in America, not Puerto Rico or Cuba, I think) CAN'T work with guitars so the African musicians have to bend over backwards to accomodate these somewhat handicapped sidemen.

MG

[seeline]

NYC-style salsa and Cuban music. From Cuba, not made by Cuban immigrants to the US.

You really need to check out Gary Stewart's Rumba on the River...

People in Africa get recordings from everywhere. I've been told by a reliable observer that you could get all sorts of rare, o.p. country, jazz, blues etc. records in the market in Bamako, Mali, back in the 70s. (Meaning things that were o.p. in both the US and Western Europe.) I have no doubts that that's true.

Re. salsa, NYC salsa is a lot different than Miami salsa, Puerto Rican salsa (from the island), Colombian salsa, etc. The term ""salsa" is pretty much as broad as the term "jazz."

Edited December 26, 2008 by seeline

[AllenLowe]

Jobim played guitar -

[seeline]

But Jobim's primary instrument was piano. Egberto Gismonti has said that he prefers piano, but took up guitar as a teenager because it's an instrument that you can carry anywhere, to any party. He still views himself as a keyboardist first.

Brazil is guitar-centric in a major way.

Again, I think some of you gents aren't looking at the big picture...

Edited December 26, 2008 by seeline

[seeline]

It's almost as if the American musicians (most were actually born in America, not Puerto Rico or Cuba, I think) CAN'T work with guitars so the African musicians have to bend over backwards to accomodate these somewhat handicapped sidemen.

My take: This is more about local tastes than anything else. NYC-style salsa does not use guitars per se. But many smaller NYC groups often use the cuatro, sometimes the tres - or both. they're types of guitars, just not "our" guitars (6 or 12-string). Cuban trova (both the original style and more contemporary stuff - played at places like the Casa de la Trova in Santiago) is *very* much guitar-based.

I'm not sure what else I can suggest on this topic. (Though Banning Eyre's observation on Malian guitarists being able to play amazing blues solos but not "getting" the 12-bar blues as a form comes to mind - he talks about this in his book, In Griot Time.)

Banning does a lot of reviews and features for Afropop Worldwide. Might be well worth your while to drop him a line over there. he's very helpful, and quick to answer queries when he's not traveling. He's also very knowledgeable re. Malian and Guinean guitar playing and styles.

Edited December 26, 2008 by seeline

[kh1958]

Here are a couple of two CD collections featuring some great guitarists from Mexico (Antonio Bribiesca, Ramon Dona-Do, Gilberto Puente, and Claudio Estrada):

http://www.amazon.com/Los-Grandes-Guitarri...4124&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Los-Grandes-Guitarri...4124&sr=1-3

[seeline]

Those look really good, kh! Thanks muchly for the links.

One of the all-time greats of Cuban trova music is Maria Teresa Vera. She and other trova composers, lyricists, singers (etc.) are really important, both on and off the island. She had a very "unpretty," raspy voice, but her interpretations - wow!

There's also a lot of trova feeling in the Buena Vista Social Club's style and repertoire.

Edited December 26, 2008 by seeline

[kh1958]

Those are really good collections--I especially like Antonio Bribiesca, he makes the guitar weep--he's just as expressive as a great blues guitarist.

I like trova--in Tower Records in Mexico City, there is a Trova section!

[seeline]

Those are really good collections--I especially like Antonio Bribiesca, he makes the guitar weep--he's just as expressive as a great blues guitarist.

I like trova--in Tower Records in Mexico City, there is a Trova section!

Thanks again... and oh, are you lucky, being so close to Mexico. I'm on the East Coast.

[seeline]

Larry Harlow (longtime NYC salsa bandleader) has worked a lot with Yomo Toro recently.

Here's Yomo taking a solo (with Harlow's band):

Here's a song from a classic NYC album (on Fania), Asfalto Navideño - leaders were Willie Colon, Yomo and singer Hector Lavoe:

Tresero Arsenio Rodriguez with one of his bands: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71GHJf7Zi8E

Aresenio's music, with lots of historic pics and album covers:

For Spanish-speakers, a docu on Arsenio's influence on NY salsa, etc.:

Cuban tresero Eduardo Suarez:

Charanga has a violin and flute lead. I'll try to find some decent vids; right now I'm wading through dance clips, which aren't what I'm looking for!

Orquesta Aragón - one of Cuba's best-known charanga groups, has been around for over 50 years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M5AygPuR9M

NYC salsero Johnny Pacheco had his own charanga for many years, then moved on into a lead singers' role (and recorded some great albums with Celia Cruz and others).

* Descarga.com is a terrific source for info. on NYC salsa, many forms of Puerto Rican and Cuban music, etc. - very highly recommended. It's a store, but their reviews and newsletter archives are invaluable. They used to print up hard-copy catalogs that had very complete discographic info. for all records listed.

Edited January 17, 2009 by seeline

[kh1958]

Those are really good collections--I especially like Antonio Bribiesca, he makes the guitar weep--he's just as expressive as a great blues guitarist.

I like trova--in Tower Records in Mexico City, there is a Trova section!

Thanks again... and oh, are you lucky, being so close to Mexico. I'm on the East Coast.

Yes, it's only a two hour flight to Mexico City, whereas it's over three hours to New York.

[seeline]

Those are really good collections--I especially like Antonio Bribiesca, he makes the guitar weep--he's just as expressive as a great blues guitarist.

I like trova--in Tower Records in Mexico City, there is a Trova section!

Thanks again... and oh, are you lucky, being so close to Mexico. I'm on the East Coast.

Yes, it's only a two hour flight to Mexico City, whereas it's over three hours to New York.

Flight time's one thing; cost is the other. (I bet that's true for you as well.) it's funny how Amtrak and the airlines seem to jack up prices in an arbitrary way. When I lived in D.C., a round-trip train ticket to NYC cost several hundred dollars. Now I live up in PA< and a round-trip ticket to NYC costs less than 100.00 bucks. (Though I'd have to change in Philly to get the Metroliner or Acela.)

Basically, Amtrak ticket costs are far higher if you're *only* traveling on the NE corridor lines. Book a ticket from a bit further west, and it's so much cheaper, even though you're actually on a NE corridor train. Go figure!

Edited December 26, 2008 by seeline

[kh1958]

Those are really good collections--I especially like Antonio Bribiesca, he makes the guitar weep--he's just as expressive as a great blues guitarist.

I like trova--in Tower Records in Mexico City, there is a Trova section!

Thanks again... and oh, are you lucky, being so close to Mexico. I'm on the East Coast.

Yes, it's only a two hour flight to Mexico City, whereas it's over three hours to New York.

Flight time's one thing; cost is the other. (I bet that's true for you as well.) it's funny how Amtrak and the airlines seem to jack up prices in an arbitrary way. When I lived in D.C., a round-trip train ticket to NYC cost several hundred dollars. Now I live up in PA< and a round-trip ticket to NYC costs less than 100.00 bucks. (Though I'd have to change in Philly to get the Metroliner or Acela.)

Basically, Amtrak ticket costs are far higher if you're *only* traveling on the NE corridor lines. Book a ticket from a bit further west, and it's so much cheaper, even though you're actually on a NE corridor train. Go figure!

American Airlines has quite a few flights out of DFW to both places, so with a little planning relatively inexpensive fares are often available to both New York and Mexico City. It can be very arbitrary though--earlier this year I made two short notice business trips to New York, and the fare each time was $2000 for coach. Yet at about the same time I also booked a seminar trip in advance, and the fare was only $200.

[JSngry]

Can't say "charanga" w/o mentioning Jose Fajardo!

I have this side on Panart LP and hold it quite dear:

I used to have a thing against charanga, only had heard the NYC "society" version of it, but then went to one of those great Salsa-Meets-Jazz things at the Village Gate back in the summer of 1980(?), and the intermission band (i.e. - the one who was there strictly to play for dancing) was a charanga group with an apparently Caucasian female flautist (wonder if it was Connie Grossman?), and jack, those suckers rocked the house BIG time. So I turned on a dime about charanga right then and there.

Here's a good (and highly quirky!) clip from Orq. Broadway that captures a bit of what charanga can do when not played "politely", as one might be led to believe is how it is usually played: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=084TLlTVmks...feature=related

Edited December 26, 2008 by JSngry

[seeline]

Nice clips! Remember, though, that Aragón is doing what it always did - playing classy-sounding dance music. It's in their interest to retain a lot of their 50s sound, though I'm sure their charts for classic material have all been updated.

I really like Orquesta Broadway, but for some reason have never really warmed to Fajardo's sound - the latter doesn't make sense, really, since I like the more "refined" style. (Just not the way his band played it.) Edit: Either I have tin ears, or the Fajardo CDs I've got are not representative. (He did do some fairly schlocky stuff at times, but your clips are not like that - thanks again!)

And O. Broadway is (I think) very "New York" in its approach, though I may be mistaken there - would need to check with some of the folks who got me into salsa (etc.) in the first place to be sure. I just like it, but they've been immersed in it for decades.

Edit (again!): In that 2nd Fajardo clip, they're playing "Son de la Loma" by Arsenio Rodriguez - hard to go wrong with that!!!

Edited December 26, 2008 by seeline

[JSngry]

I really dig the liquidity of Fajardo's tone, the way the notes swim together yet still retain their percussiveness. He's rather unique in that regard, I think. But no, he's not always "fiery" either.

As far as the "New York" thing, hey, I'm not even close to being even a psedo-expert. I just dig the stuff, played it some over the years, and don't shy away form the records. But I have no real "scholarly" background in the music, just the basics (and the awareness that as a rule, Cubans really don't respect Puerto Rican salsa. I had that point made to me several times rather, uh,,,fervently!). All I know for sure is that when I first started getting hip to salsa, all the charanga sides I got hold of were real "polite". Now I know Aragon, yeah, that's their thing, always has been, that's pretty much their roots, and I respect that. But all the Broadway and other NY bands I heard, teh sides were all exceedingly polite. And....a society band is still a society band, if you know what I mean. So hearing some livelier and friskier charanga was a real awakening as to what else the genre could do.

Edited December 26, 2008 by JSngry

[seeline]

I hear you about "friskier," but I think that you're hearing the son montuno thing in that video of Fajardo's group doing "Son de la Loma." It's a "harder" sound, fits well into the NYC salsa dura genre.

There's some bad Fajardo out there, where he covers things like "The Poor People of Paris." And for some reason, those records seem to stay in print, or else cuts pop up on compilations. I think you're absolutely right about his playing, though.

am not sure that you can really characterize charangas as "society bands" on the whole - it depends on the material they play. Aragón sticks with lots of cha-cha-chás and danzones, which is what they're famous for. If they switched over to son montuno rep., they'd probably have a very different sound!

As far as Cubans, Puerto Ricans (et. al.) and their views about each other's music, yeah... the same thing happens when people from Uruguay and Argentina start talking about tango. (Where it originated, who's better at it, whether Carlos Gardel was really from Argentina or if he was Uruguyan, etc.) I try to stay far away from all that; I just like the music, not the politics associated with it! (With Cuban music, "Who invented the cha-cha-chá?" is another question that can get people really riled up - some believe it was Enrique Jorrín, some that it came from Aragón...)

Edit: nice piece on contemporary charanga and Latin jazz flutists, over at Chip Boaz's blog.

Edited December 27, 2008 by seeline

[JSngry]

I hear you about "friskier," but I think that you're hearing the son montuno thing in that video of Fajardo's group doing "Son de la Loma." It's a "harder" sound, fits well into the NYC salsa dura genre.

There's some bad Fajardo out there, where he covers things like "The Poor People of Paris." And for some reason, those records seem to stay in print, or else cuts pop up on compilations. I think you're absolutely right about his playing, though.

I think that what happened is that charanga bands got a commercial window in the aftermath of the whole cha-cha-cha craze, and that that's where your Fajardo sides and my earlier charanga sides came from. Lots of "Latin" music for people who really don't know/want Latin music... Some name bands just churning out product, it seems. The stuff is really functional and not too much else, and either a lot of it got recorded and left in the bins for me to find 15-20 years later or else my charanga karma just like really sucked for far too long.

I did get lucky with one purchase, though, a charanga side by Alfredito Valdes (on Tru-Sound A Prestige subsidiary, produced by Ozzie Cadena and recorded by RVG!) that had Chombo Silva on violin throughout. Now that one had some groove!

[seeline]

Chombo Silva! "Nuff said; must be fantastic!!!

And yeah... recording contracts. Like those Ellington and Basie albums of B'way and movie theme song hits that were made back in the 60s. I think everyone got stuck recording X amount of schlock back then; it's still true with the majors. (Which is one reason why some albums by people like Milton Nascimento are so dismal.)

Edited to add: Chombo Silva (vln) with Charanga Tipica Ideal live (1976), as recorded by the owner of the blog (Fidel's Eyeglasses).

Edited December 26, 2008 by seeline

[JSngry]

Chombo Silva (vln) with Charanga Tipica Ideal live (1976), as recorded by the owner of the blog (Fidel's Eyeglasses).

oooOOOOooooh! NICE!