Why don't record companies print cds on demand?

[Tom Storer]

Here's another question: if record companies did print on demand, would they have to be CD-Rs? Is there no way to produce an extremely limited batch or proper CDs? I take it there are some issues with CD-Rs with regard to longevity. I know nothing about how proper CDs are produced, so maybe some kind person could educate me. Thanks.

Cost effective cds are in quantities of 1000. Cost effective booklets/tray cards are minimally 2500. Most issues deleted sell below 200 a year. You do the math. None of this takes into consideration the expense of warehousing, etc.

That's cost effective, I assume, at the normal price of a CD release. I'm thinking on-demand CDs would be able to get a higher price because they're on demand and therefore purchasers would have considerably higher motivation. Warehousing, obviously, would not be a factor since they wouldn't be warehoused, they'd be printed on demand and shipped at once.

BWTFDIK?

[Dan Gould]

Check it out: http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=48143

hel-LO!

For those who want something to hold in their hands, this seems like an excellent compromise. I don't think I'd hesitate if I saw something OOP that I wanted in this form.

[Bluerein]

And then sell it on Organissimo because you suddenly remembered you've sold all your cd's (for a good reason....)

[A Lark Ascending]

It all depends how many people want an 'on demand' printed CD rather than a download.

I suspect the numbers will be few and will decrease as time goes on and as downloading becomes increasingly accepted. The 2009 Penguin Guide to Recorded Classical Music (and whatever you think of it as a guide, it's hardly renowned for embracing the faddish) has a couple of pages at the front covering downloading and reassuring readers that downloading will not stop their chickens laying eggs or their cows giving milk.

I'm pretty convinced that any 'on demand service' will be a transitional stage whilst those suspicious of downloads are gradually won over. The future lies in high quality downloads with high quality album art available as a pdf or something similar.

For those who can see beyond the scare stories the future is already here. What's not to like about this from a small scale company that revolves around a single group?:

http://www.gimell.com/recording-The-Tallis...lliam-Byrd.aspx

Still has a CD option - but I wonder for how long.

Maybe the one thing that might keep the physical CD alive is the need to have something to sell at gigs. But even then it would be pretty easy to sell a card with credit to buy the download when online from the home store. Would solve the musician's problem of having to bring boxes of CDs to gigs.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Art Rupe kept the whole of his catalogue alive for years this way. He'd repress anything - mostly 45s, because Specialty didn't issue many LPs until the late sixties - if he got an order for 500 copies.

But 500 copies...

He did get orders, though.

MG

[Chuck Nessa]

Here's another question: if record companies did print on demand, would they have to be CD-Rs? Is there no way to produce an extremely limited batch or proper CDs? I take it there are some issues with CD-Rs with regard to longevity. I know nothing about how proper CDs are produced, so maybe some kind person could educate me. Thanks.

Cost effective cds are in quantities of 1000. Cost effective booklets/tray cards are minimally 2500. Most issues deleted sell below 200 a year. You do the math. None of this takes into consideration the expense of warehousing, etc.

That's cost effective, I assume, at the normal price of a CD release. I'm thinking on-demand CDs would be able to get a higher price because they're on demand and therefore purchasers would have considerably higher motivation. Warehousing, obviously, would not be a factor since they wouldn't be warehoused, they'd be printed on demand and shipped at once.

BWTFDIK?

Read carefully and you will see I was responding to "proper CDs", not CD-Rs.

[medjuck]

I just found this on the Smithsonian website re: Folkways (took some searching):

"As a condition of the acquisition, the Smithsonian agreed that virtually all of the firm's 2,168 titles would remain "in print" forever--a condition that Smithsonian Folkways continues to honor through its custom order service. Whether it sells 8,000 copies each year or only one copy every five years, every Folkways title remains available for purchase."

I'm not home to check whether the one I got was a CD-R but I see you can also download (even single tracks!) for about half the price of a cd.

Wouldn't it be nice if every label had this policy.

Edited November 30, 2008 by medjuck

[Shrdlu]

I have never had a CDr die on me, and we're talking 10 years or so now, so they would do fine.

I'm sure the companies could sell custom CDrs. The problem really lies with tracks that are still only on tape because certain "producers" won't issue them. For those who don't know, tapes aged up to 55 years and more cannot just be pulled off the shelf and copied onto a hard drive.

[Chuck Nessa]

I have never had a CDr die on me, and we're talking 10 years or so now, so they would do fine.

I'm sure the companies could sell custom CDrs. The problem really lies with tracks that are still only on tape because certain "producers" won't issue them. For those who don't know, tapes aged up to 55 years and more cannot just be pulled off the shelf and copied onto a hard drive.

When the oxide flakes of the master of A Love Supreme, the Rapture begins.

[clifford_thornton]

[Shrdlu]

When the oxide flakes of the master of A Love Supreme, the Rapture begins.

That opens the door to this point.

One of the proofs that the Bible is the Word of God is its preservation. The oldest book, Job, is about 3000 years old now. (Not sure of the exact age, but it's about that. The human author, Elihu, was a contemporary of Abraham.)

None of the original autographs of any of the books of the Bible exists, but God has seen to it that copies survive, and that it was all perfectly transferred into the English Authorized King James Bible, English being the universal language of the end times.

We are worried about our beloved 50s and 60s session reels decomposing, and that's only 50 years or so.

[Tom Storer]

Read carefully and you will see I was responding to "proper CDs", not CD-Rs.

The same logic applies, though. What is cost effective depends on what you can sell the CD for. I have no idea what kind of investment is required to even set up a print-on-demand system, but there might be a niche market out there of music geeks willing to pay a sufficiently high amount for otherwise OOP titles to make it feasible in the medium or long term. People will bid for old copies on ebay and get up to ridiculous prices; won't the same people shell out a certain amount for a new copy printed on demand? That doesn't apply to brand new CDs, though... I'm glad I'm not a businessman. But if I were, it wouldn't last long anyway.

[RDK]

Read carefully and you will see I was responding to "proper CDs", not CD-Rs.

The same logic applies, though. What is cost effective depends on what you can sell the CD for. I have no idea what kind of investment is required to even set up a print-on-demand system, but there might be a niche market out there of music geeks willing to pay a sufficiently high amount for otherwise OOP titles to make it feasible in the medium or long term. People will bid for old copies on ebay and get up to ridiculous prices; won't the same people shell out a certain amount for a new copy printed on demand? That doesn't apply to brand new CDs, though... I'm glad I'm not a businessman. But if I were, it wouldn't last long anyway.

But that's thinking as the "older generation" (or at least music "collectors"). I think as we're dragged into the future, if one can't buy the original (oop/expensive) disc/LP that one covets one will be more likely to simply download a copy or burn it from a friend than to pay pay a greater-than-CD-price for what's essentially a CDR. It does come back to what you are buying: the music or the medium. For many of us (speaking for myself), there's still great "value" in the manufactured CD that isn't there in a CDR. So I wouldn't pay much to get a CDR - especially if I could get a legal digital copy/download. While I see a great future in CDs-on-demand (essentially "official" CDRs), I don't foresee it as a viable business model if they cost *more* than a manufactured CD.

[Fer Urbina]

Here's another question: if record companies did print on demand, would they have to be CD-Rs? Is there no way to produce an extremely limited batch or proper CDs? I take it there are some issues with CD-Rs with regard to longevity. I know nothing about how proper CDs are produced, so maybe some kind person could educate me. Thanks.

Cost effective cds are in quantities of 1000. Cost effective booklets/tray cards are minimally 2500. Most issues deleted sell below 200 a year. You do the math. None of this takes into consideration the expense of warehousing, etc.

The Japanese seem to do that, short batches and then reissue whatever needs be reissued. Thus, for instance, you only have two issues of Eddie Costa's House of Blue Lights (c. 1994, c.2003, none in Europe/US) but I don't know how many of Miles Davis or other far better selling artists.

I guess there must be a reason why that model is not followed elsewhere (lower distribution costs, I guess, plenty of people in a very small area) but I certainly don't know for sure.

F

[Tom Storer]

Read carefully and you will see I was responding to "proper CDs", not CD-Rs.

The same logic applies, though. What is cost effective depends on what you can sell the CD for. I have no idea what kind of investment is required to even set up a print-on-demand system, but there might be a niche market out there of music geeks willing to pay a sufficiently high amount for otherwise OOP titles to make it feasible in the medium or long term. People will bid for old copies on ebay and get up to ridiculous prices; won't the same people shell out a certain amount for a new copy printed on demand? That doesn't apply to brand new CDs, though... I'm glad I'm not a businessman. But if I were, it wouldn't last long anyway.

But that's thinking as the "older generation" (or at least music "collectors"). I think as we're dragged into the future, if one can't buy the original (oop/expensive) disc/LP that one covets one will be more likely to simply download a copy or burn it from a friend than to pay pay a greater-than-CD-price for what's essentially a CDR. It does come back to what you are buying: the music or the medium. For many of us (speaking for myself), there's still great "value" in the manufactured CD that isn't there in a CDR. So I wouldn't pay much to get a CDR - especially if I could get a legal digital copy/download. While I see a great future in CDs-on-demand (essentially "official" CDRs), I don't foresee it as a viable business model if they cost *more* than a manufactured CD.

But as Chuck gently reminded me, "read carefully" and you will see that in the quoted post I was talking about real CDs instead of CD-Rs. People such as yourself who covet real CDs would pay more for them than for either a download or a CD-R.

Although I confess I don't understand what the big deal is about a CD-R versus a "real" CD if the music itself is lossless and the packaging is good. Is the shorter life of CD-Rs the only problem? And how long do they last, anyway?

Edited December 2, 2008 by Tom Storer

[.:.impossible]

Isn't the main difference between a cd and a cdr an extra layer of varnish applied to the disc once the information has been written? I feel like there is a thread about this here somewhere.

[rockefeller center]

Isn't the main difference between a cd and a cdr an extra layer of varnish applied to the disc once the information has been written? I feel like there is a thread about this here somewhere.

http://www.audiolinks.nl/cdr.htm

http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq01.html#S1-2

[RDK]

Read carefully and you will see I was responding to "proper CDs", not CD-Rs.

The same logic applies, though. What is cost effective depends on what you can sell the CD for. I have no idea what kind of investment is required to even set up a print-on-demand system, but there might be a niche market out there of music geeks willing to pay a sufficiently high amount for otherwise OOP titles to make it feasible in the medium or long term. People will bid for old copies on ebay and get up to ridiculous prices; won't the same people shell out a certain amount for a new copy printed on demand? That doesn't apply to brand new CDs, though... I'm glad I'm not a businessman. But if I were, it wouldn't last long anyway.

But that's thinking as the "older generation" (or at least music "collectors"). I think as we're dragged into the future, if one can't buy the original (oop/expensive) disc/LP that one covets one will be more likely to simply download a copy or burn it from a friend than to pay pay a greater-than-CD-price for what's essentially a CDR. It does come back to what you are buying: the music or the medium. For many of us (speaking for myself), there's still great "value" in the manufactured CD that isn't there in a CDR. So I wouldn't pay much to get a CDR - especially if I could get a legal digital copy/download. While I see a great future in CDs-on-demand (essentially "official" CDRs), I don't foresee it as a viable business model if they cost *more* than a manufactured CD.

But as Chuck gently reminded me, "read carefully" and you will see that in the quoted post I was talking about real CDs instead of CD-Rs. People such as yourself who covet real CDs would pay more for them than for either a download or a CD-R.

Although I confess I don't understand what the big deal is about a CD-R versus a "real" CD if the music itself is lossless and the packaging is good. Is the shorter life of CD-Rs the only problem? And how long do they last, anyway?

No, you misunderstand (at aleast a bit). Yes, to me there's more of a tangible value in an LP or CD - it's something I feel one can own and resell if desired - but I don't find a burned CDR to be any more desireable than ol' plain digital files. All this talk about CDs-on-demand seems rather foolish to me. Forget the CDR; for me I'll just take the flac please and (hopefully) pay a lot less.

Another issue: can we sell these CDRs (and will others buy them second-hand) like traditional "used" CDs?

[Tom Storer]

I repeat, I wasn't talking about CDRs, I was talking about on-demand CDs.

[RDK]

I repeat, I wasn't talking about CDRs, I was talking about on-demand CDs.

Ah, sorry. But is there even such a thing as "on-demand CDs?" When I think of something like on-demand or made-to-order, I'm thinking of only one or two (or maybe a handful) made at a time, if nothing else to minimize warehousing costs, and that can only be accomplished by burning discs rather than by pressing actual CDs in a factory. Unless they've invented some new CD pressing machine that I'm unaware of.

[JSngry]

Pressing CDs is so...copulatory. You get in there and you leave your mark after a good bit of...proactive invasion.

Burning them is, like.... zipperless. Hit and run.

Think about that. You think about that.

[RDK]

Pressing CDs is so...copulatory. You get in there and you leave your mark after a good bit of...proactive invasion.

Burning them is, like.... zipperless. Hit and run.

Think about that. You think about that.

All depends on how much you want to pay and how many times you want to do it...

[Adam]

IIRC The Folkways catalogue is available on demand from the Smithsonian. I got a cd with cuts by Gil Evans and Maryy-Lou Williams from them.

It was originally a compilation Lp and they include the original liner notes. I'm not home so I can't check it for info right now.

Just going to say the same. Smithsonian Folkways has everything that is not currently in print available as CD-R on request, with notes. Part of their deal in taking the collection was to make all of it perpetually available.

[Tom Storer]

But is there even such a thing as "on-demand CDs?"

Fer Chrissake, do you want idle theoretical speculation or don't you? Asking a man to take the real world into account... I never.

When I think of something like on-demand or made-to-order, I'm thinking of only one or two (or maybe a handful) made at a time, if nothing else to minimize warehousing costs, and that can only be accomplished by burning discs rather than by pressing actual CDs in a factory. Unless they've invented some new CD pressing machine that I'm unaware of.

Well, maybe they could. Someday. Why not, after all? We sent a man to the moon, didn't we?

See, I have no idea how "real" CDs are made. Maybe that explains why people keep rudely trying to overrule me.