AllenLowe Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) "you certainly know how to damn with faint praise, don't you" I guess this means I don't think everything is good - yes, nothing wrong (or pathetic) with reaching different musical conclusions - and yes, I think Pops would not have been Pops with "better" arrangers - I find Willett and the band to be a perfect fit - Armstrong was completely at ease with this band, which fit his sensibility like nice but worn suit. Would not have been the same thing with some other setups. He had more than a little schlock in his soul. But his was a highbrow/lowbrow sensibility, an attitude with a great American pedigree. And as Stanley Kaufmann once said about Peter Handke and Wim Wenders (and I paraphrase, but closely), "(for greater artists) it's not the pop dream but what you make of the pop dream that matters." (italics mine) though I do wish Bingie Madison had taken a little time to tune up - Edited March 10, 2009 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted O'Reilly Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Ted - anything in quotes is the previous post by Carnivore - each graf underneath is my response - Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted O'Reilly Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Last thing I need is a "new" book on Armstrong. ....but Chuck, this is a new book BY Armstrong. How many of those do you have? One. Louis Armstrong In His Own Words, edited by Thomas Brothers, 1999 Oxford. That's a good one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricko Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 I hate jumping in the middle of what is rapidly becoming a two-man argument, but I just want to say that Pops was always Pops, it didn't matter who arranged for him. Like Allen, I have no problem with Armstrong's big band arrangements at all. Sure they're nothing extraordinary but it's not like they hindered Armstrong. Take a record like "Woverine Blues." Willet wrote the arrangement and I think it's a killer; but Pops doesn't enter until the record is halfway over. He plays wonderfully and it's a classic record, but really, I personally don't need a bunch of Armstrong tracks spotlighting the arrangements and not Pops. Give me the simple backings and let me hear Pops play the melody, sing a chorus and go out on top. If I want to hear a great arrangement, I'll go elsewhere. But like I said, Pops always remained Pops. Have you ever sat down and though about the settings he appeared in over the years? I know I've done stuff like this before but what the hell, what's one more time? *He played Don Redman arrangements with Fletcher Henderson *He played with Erskine Tate's "symphony orchestra," as he called it, doing "Cavallleria Rusticana" and Noel Coward's "Poor Little Rich Girl" *He recorded a Jelly Roll Morton tune, "Chicago Breakdown" with his own smallish big band, Louis Armstrong and His Stompers *He fronted the bands of Carroll Dickerson, Luis Russell, Willie Bryant, Les Hite and Leon Elkins, recording pop tunes for OKeh *He loved the steel guitars on "Confessin'," the strings on "Song of the Islands" and the Lombardo-sax section on almost everything else *When confronted with a stock arrangement, his early-30s arrangers knew to eliminate the fancy stuff and give Pops what he wanted: usually simple harmonies emphasizing beats one and three (see "Star Dust") *When he finally started his own big band, the last few points I've made practically doubled. They were out-of-tune sometimes and dreary but they didn't get in his way and he called it his "happiest" band *Flash forward to the Deccas with arrangements by Willet, Horace Gerlach, Russell, Sy Oliver and others. They never stopped Pops from being Pops and he positively soared on them (though yes, Bingie Madison is pretty rough) *In the mid-40s, Armstrong's group went more brass heavy and, yes, Kenton-esque, in order to stay with the times. Needless to say, when listening to those broadcasts and records today, Armstrong's the only aspect that doesn't sound dated. *After the All Stars were formed, Armstrong made records in the 50s featuring arrangements by Sy Oliver, Gordon Jenkins, Jack Pleiss, Russ Garcia, Benny Carter and Tutti Camaratta. He was backed by voices, strings and regular big bands. He always sounded like Pops. *In the 60s, he recorded with Ellington, Brubeck, Bing Crosby (with Billy May) and the Dukes of Dixieland, all within about 16 months. On those recordings, he sounded like Pops, Pops, Pops and Pops. *In the late 60s, he was given crummy songs to record with horrendous arrangements by Dick Jacobs (or "Schmuck" Jacobs as Joe Muranyi referred to him). But on stuff like "I Will Wait For You," he overcame it by being Pops. *He did a terrible session for Brunswick where Sonny Sanders gave him a Motown-style backing as he covered the Lovin' Spoonful's "Daydream" *His last major album, for RCA, found him singing over Oliver Nelson arrangements, doing everything from "Mood Indigo" to "Everybody's Talkin'." There's some dreary shit on that record, but Pops makes it all listenable Don Redman to Oliver Nelson? "Sugar Foot Stomp" to "Give Peace a Chance"? Really, did any of it matter? As already pointed out, Armstrong loved Guy Lombardo, he practiced by playing along with Italian records (see "Luna" on the Fleichsmann's set), he quoted opera in his breaks ("Rigoletto" on "New Orleans Stomp" to name one), he was knocked out by Barbra Streisand, he dug the Beatles and he even praised Monk in Down Beat. In every single song he ever recorded, he was himself. So to lament the quality of his arrangements, his musicians, his songs, whatever, is, to me, a waste of time. We should be thankful he did what he did, played what he played and sang what he sang. Put me down for a Mosaic preorder (and yes, I have this material in complete form on at least two or three other labels). Yours in Pops, Ricky Riccardi dippermouth.blogspot.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 thanks, Rick, good overview - I want to add that I have to admit that I've never been a big fan (except in spots) of the small group all stars. On the other hand, the 1950s re-creations have some of the best Armstrong ever, IMHO - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) *Flash forward to the Deccas with arrangements by Willet, Horace Gerlach, Russell, Sy Oliver and others. They never stopped Pops from being Pops and he positively soared on them (though yes, Bingie Madison is pretty rough)... ...Put me down for a Mosaic preorder (and yes, I have this material in complete form on at least two or three other labels). My feelings exactly. I usually make a point of not repurchasing music, and I have never bought a Mosaic set before of music that I already have. But this will be a big exception. The music that Armstrong recorded during this decade is just miraculous. Forget the inconsistencies, the sometimes poor material, the sometimes stiff arrangements. Armstrong gets inside most of the songs here and delivers them with devastating musicality. This is Pops at his absolute peak (IMO). Edited March 11, 2009 by John L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricko Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 This is Pops at his absolute peak (IMO). Yes, especially when you factor in the Fleischmann's Yeast broadcasts from 1937 and a bunch of other radio broadcasts that surfaced from the Cotton Club, the Casa Manana and the Grand Terrace from around 1938 to 1942, collected on a very hard to find Ambassador disc, "Live At The Cotton Club" (produced by the recently deceased Gosta Hagglof). When you listen to the Deccas AND those live recordings, well forget it...he could do anything! He was in absolute complete command of my horn in this period. I'm probably going to post the audio of an entire Casa Manana broadcast on my blog within a week or so because I think it contains one of the greatest 30-minute segments of Louis Armstrong music I've ever heard. Dig it... Ricky Riccardi dippermouth.blogspot.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny weir Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 I'd like to thank all the contributors to this thread, on which I have not posted until now but which I have monitored all along. My record buying of late has been very muchly of the hillbilly variety, but this set is top of my wish list - maybe a reward for when I score a job! I thought I had at least some little familiarity with this material, but I have checked my racks and find, that, no, I don't. So it will be pleasure of the purest kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bixieland Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Not sure if this has been mentioned or noticed -- but I was listening to the sound samples on Mosaic's site, what's with the needle drops? I kind of like it! It also adds a little space between tracks, I would presume. I like that. Ted Kendall did so as well on the Chu box and Waller JSPs...very nice. Not sure if it was intended for the Armstrong samples...but I really love vinyl-vibe. I hope they keep it like it is. The sound quality is nice, warm and open. Reminds me a little of the Schaap's "hands-off" approach to the Goodman Carnegie Hall release. I can't wait for this one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) Ted Kendall is not involved with this project, Andreas Meyer has done the transfers, the eq, and the mastering. Here's what the Producer's Notes say about the source material (mainly metal parts, some 78s and tapes, etc.) I haven't listened to the samples, I'll wait for the set. Producer’s Note: This set brings together all the Decca studio sessions by Louis Armstrong before joining RCA Victor in 1946. The disc sources for this package came from the original Decca metal parts. In some cases, either because the metal was damaged or because it was missing from the vault, a 78rpm pressing was used. For sessions (QQ), (RR) and (SS) we were unable to obtain the original sources because of a devastating fire that claimed the life of metal parts, lacquer discs and various configurations of tapes. This is why we have had to utilize second generation LPs and CDRs as transfer sources for this set. The source of this discography comes from the excellent publication All Of Me – The Complete Discography Of Louis Armstrong by Jos Willems (Scarecrow Press, 2006), and The Decca Labels by Michel Ruppli (Greenwood Press, 1996). Other entries in this discography came from research by Dan Morgenstern and the producer. Scott Wenzel Edited March 23, 2009 by jazzbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) "For sessions (QQ), (RR) and (SS) we were unable to obtain the original sources because of a devastating fire that claimed the life of metal parts, lacquer discs and various configurations of tapes. This is why we have had to utilize second generation LPs and CDRs as transfer sources for this set." so much for original recordings - I've already got lots of good Decca LP sources - will not pay for something I can do just as well myself - Edited March 23, 2009 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bixieland Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) I didn't mean to imply that Kendall did the mastering, just that he spaced tracks nicely on those projects. I saw that Andreas Meyer did the work on the set, which I welcome...since I find the Columbia Small Group set to sound among the best! As for the needle drops, I thought I heard it on the first sample and on the "planter from Havana". It definitely sounds like it's from an LP. Sounds great regardless. Edited March 23, 2009 by Bixieland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kh1958 Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 It sounds like the sources were destroyed for only 10 out of 170 plus tracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bixieland Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) Re-reading that, it's unclear to me whether more than just (QQ), (RR) and (SS) are sourced from LPs. ...The disc sources for this package came from the original Decca metal parts. In some cases, either because the metal was damaged or because it was missing from the vault, a 78rpm pressing was used. For sessions (QQ), (RR) and (SS) we were unable to obtain the original sources... The sentence highlighted above could imply that LPs were used throughout, whenever there was damaged metal parts. This is in addition to (QQ), (RR) and (SS). The second paragraph just mentions that there was no option on (QQ), (RR) and (SS), since those sessions were destroyed. By the way, the two (what sounded like) needle drops -- are from session (Q) and (PP). Edited March 23, 2009 by Bixieland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) Um, having no Armstrong in my collection is this where I should start? Edit to add that I have heard the Columbia small groups but not in some time. Edited March 23, 2009 by clifford_thornton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bixieland Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) Um, having no Armstrong in my collection is this where I should start? I don't see why not. It's a great time for Louis. I would recommend the Hot 5/7s, though. I personally think he was unstoppable on those sides. I've never heard anyone play with such abandon and control. It's almost freaky. Edited March 23, 2009 by Bixieland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) 78s are not lps. Just so's you know. Mastering from metal parts is sort of needledropping. Edited March 23, 2009 by jazzbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Um, having no Armstrong in my collection is this where I should start? Edit to add that I have heard the Columbia small groups but not in some time. Man, you can start almost anywhere and find lots of heavy stuff. I'd do a single disk or double disc. . .I'd start with some later masterpieces like "Plays W. C. Handy" or the two cd set "Autobiography." Amazing stuff, great sound and playing. Just for the hell of it, these recordings need your love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) I would pick certain Deccas where the trumpet is out front and in full solo dressing - this is where Louis sounds best to contemporary ears - try Eventide, for example. If you have my set look at circa 1938 - can't remember which tune I used, but it's a great solo. Or the big band stuff from 1929-33, incuding Stardust - or listen to his solo, only, on Sweethearts on Parade - sounds like bebop, I kid you not - in terms of source material, I will say what I have said before as I work on my latest project - there are some astonishingly good LPs made of this material and other things, issued in the 1960s and 1970s, when they still had the original masters and before they started doing bad restoration work. It's such an unmitigated pleasure to listen to some of this stuff, it has a clarity and definition that begs for listening, hiss and crackle and all. For example, the LPs of Morton's Generals sound better than the CD reissue because they obviously had original parts; same with the Billie Holiday Commodores. Even an old 10 inch of Jay McShann had a better sounding Hootie Blues than the CD reissue - Edited March 23, 2009 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Um, having no Armstrong in my collection is this where I should start? Edit to add that I have heard the Columbia small groups but not in some time. Man, you can start almost anywhere and find lots of heavy stuff. I'd do a single disk or double disc. . .I'd start with some later masterpieces like "Plays W. C. Handy" or the two cd set "Autobiography." Amazing stuff, great sound and playing. Just for the hell of it, these recordings need your love. The Ellington/Armstrong (definitely the 2CD version with alternates and rehearsals!) would make a great entrance point, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Sorry, Satchmo: A Musical Autobiography is a three cd set. . . not a two cd set. Still, I stand behind my recommendation. Fantastic music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny weir Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Um, having no Armstrong in my collection is this where I should start? Edit to add that I have heard the Columbia small groups but not in some time. I heartily recommend this: It's a four-disc set that I suspect is OOP, although Amazon has it for $67 and there are heaps of cheap 2nd-hand copies there, too. It covers 23-34, so a selection of King Oliver, Hot 5s/7s and early big band stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Thanks, y'all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Um, having no Armstrong in my collection is this where I should start? Edit to add that I have heard the Columbia small groups but not in some time. I heartily recommend this: It's a four-disc set that I suspect is OOP, although Amazon has it for $67 and there are heaps of cheap 2nd-hand copies there, too. It covers 23-34, so a selection of King Oliver, Hot 5s/7s and early big band stuff. This would be my recommendation as well. No matter what Armstrong's music means to you personally, jazz fans need to come to grips with the music on this box. Everything that came after it is at least a distant relative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKE BBB Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Sorry, Satchmo: A Musical Autobiography is a three cd set. . . not a two cd set. Still, I stand behind my recommendation. Fantastic music! Reasonably priced copies can be found at amazon.ca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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