"Formulaic" Hard Bop/Blue Note ...

[Guy Berger]

Given other threads on Organissimo, is seems clear that more people here listen to Hard Bop than Swing, and have accumulated large Hard Bop collections.

Dan, there is lots of other interesting discussion on this thread, but John L's sentence is 99% sufficient to answer your question.

Guy

[danasgoodstuff]

To expand on my earlier point (which was ignored, no doubt due to my being overly cryptical as usual), I don't think Sonny Rollins would've played any of the stuff often described as 'sardonic' but for the influence of verbal language on his nonverbal expression. I also don't find much hard bop to be particularly agressive or angry...

[JSngry]

To expand on my earlier point (which was ignored, no doubt due to my being overly cryptical as usual), I don't think Sonny Rollins would've played any of the stuff often described as 'sardonic' but for the influence of verbal language on his nonverbal expression.

Sso, then, are you saying that Rollins was reacting to specific verbal "lines" instead of to an overall cultural esthetic of which those lines were an expression (and only a partial expression at that)?

[danasgoodstuff]

To expand on my earlier point (which was ignored, no doubt due to my being overly cryptical as usual), I don't think Sonny Rollins would've played any of the stuff often described as 'sardonic' but for the influence of verbal language on his nonverbal expression.

Sso, then, are you saying that Rollins was reacting to specific verbal "lines" instead of to an overall cultural esthetic of which those lines were an expression (and only a partial expression at that)?

No, I'm saying that I don't think that the 'sardonic' in the abstract, apart from any particular verbal line, would exist for Rollins in invoke in a nonverbal way but for the verbal...that the range of things you or I or the next guy could express nonverbally is/was (logically/historically) greatly expanded by the existence of verbal (and written) language.

[JSngry]

And vice-versa as well?

[Joe]

Seems to me so much of what we consider art (insert your own definition here) "happens" somewhere between regularity and surprise.

As to what counts as either... well, my own experience has taught me that both shift over time. Just as perceptions do, and as those perceiving live, grow, change, and, one trusts, gain wisdom.

In other words, if one does not find enough regularity / order in a particular instance of cultural production, one is likely to consider it formless, or amateurish, or "bad". But the presence of too much regularity / order often leads one to conclude that the thing encountered is boring, more of the same, lacking in excitement, etc.

Or, as Gertrude Stein once said (then wrote):

There is singularly nothing that makes a difference a difference in beginning and in the middle and in ending except that each generation has something different at which they are all looking. By this I mean so simply that anybody knows it that composition is the difference which makes each and all of them then different from other generations and this is what makes everything different otherwise they are all alike and everybody knows it because everybody says it.

It is very likely that nearly every one has been very nearly certain that something that is interesting is interesting them. Can they and do they. It is very interesting that nothing inside in them, that is when you consider the very long history of how every one ever acted or has felt, it is very interesting that nothing inside in them in all of them makes it connectedly different. By this I mean this. The only thing that is different from one time to another is what is seen and what is seen depends upon how everybody is doing everything. This makes the thing we are looking at very different and this makes what those who describe it make of it, it makes a composition, it confuses, it shows, it is, it looks, it likes it as it is, and this makes what is seen as it is seen. Nothing changes from generation to generation except the thing seen and that makes a composition. Lord Grey remarked that when the generals before the war talked about the war they talked about it as a nineteenth century war although to be fought with twentieth century weapons. That is because war is a thing that decides how it is to be when it is to be done. It is prepared and to that degree it is like all academies it is not a thing made by being made it is a thing prepared. Writing and painting and all that, is like that, for those who occupy themselves with it and don’t make it as it is made. Now the few who make it as it is made, and it is to be remarked that the most decided of them usually are prepared just as the world around

them is preparing, do it in this way and so I if you do not mind I will tell you how it happens. Naturally one does not know how it happened until it is well over beginning happening.

(from Composition As Explanation, 1926)

Edited November 23, 2008 by Joe

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Was Gertrude Braxton's mother?

MG

[Joe]

Was Gertrude Braxton's mother?

MG

A) Stein was definitely "a mother".

B) She's about as nurturing as a wire monkey momma.

C) She may have mothered us all.

[medjuck]

Getting back to the original post: I think that if you replace the term "hard bop" with "funk"-- a term that was used a lot at the time, you might have a different conversation. I do remember that after "Moanin" came out there seemed to be an attempt on the part of Blue Note to reproduce ti's success. (There were probably earlier examples of funk but I can't think if any right now.)

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Maybe Blue Note was trying, but the musicians didn't seem to be co-operating

One interesting thing about Soul Jazz is that the musicians have all sorts of different backgrounds: Swing; Blues; R&B; Soul; Funk; Gospel; Bebop; Hard Bop. And they bring different ideas from these other kinds of music.

For example, Baby Face Willette's albums were quite different to Fred Jackson's, even though Jackson was on one of Willette's. And both were quite different from Ike Quebec's albums with Freddie Roach, which were quite different from Roach's own albums. And all of this was different from what Lou Donaldson was doing with Willette and Patton. And different from what Patton was doing as a leader. And Don Wilkerson was different, and so was Harold Vick. And all of this with some of the same people - like Grant Green and Ben Dixon - running through many of the albums. (And this is just to think about Blue Note. When you add in Prestige - with people like Jaws/Scott; Arnett; Jug; Red Holloway; J H Smith; Forrest - and Riverside - with people like Johnny Lytle and Cannonball/Nat - Argo - with Ramsey Lewis & Al Grey - and PJ, with McCann, Holmes etc etc... Then add in vocalists like Della Reese, Nancy Wilson, Etta Jones, Lou Rawls.)

Because Soul Jazz probably isn't one thing; it could probably be thought of as an umbrella term covering a multitude of different styles with, as their only (or at least main) common denominator, their orientation towards the popular black market.

MG

[Peter Friedman]

Maybe Blue Note was trying, but the musicians didn't seem to be co-operating

One interesting thing about Soul Jazz is that the musicians have all sorts of different backgrounds: Swing; Blues; R&B; Soul; Funk; Gospel; Bebop; Hard Bop. And they bring different ideas from these other kinds of music.

For example, Baby Face Willette's albums were quite different to Fred Jackson's, even though Jackson was on one of Willette's. And both were quite different from Ike Quebec's albums with Freddie Roach, which were quite different from Roach's own albums. And all of this was different from what Lou Donaldson was doing with Willette and Patton. And different from what Patton was doing as a leader. And Don Wilkerson was different, and so was Harold Vick. And all of this with some of the same people - like Grant Green and Ben Dixon - running through many of the albums. (And this is just to think about Blue Note. When you add in Prestige - with people like Jaws/Scott; Arnett; Jug; Red Holloway; J H Smith; Forrest - and Riverside - with people like Johnny Lytle and Cannonball/Nat - Argo - with Ramsey Lewis & Al Grey - and PJ, with McCann, Holmes etc etc... Then add in vocalists like Della Reese, Nancy Wilson, Etta Jones, Lou Rawls.)

Because Soul Jazz probably isn't one thing; it could probably be thought of as an umbrella term covering a multitude of different styles with, as their only (or at least main) common denominator, their orientation towards the popular black market.

MG

Yes, but that same sort of variety can be found within most musical genres. Take for example what we think of as "West Coast Jazz". The Mulligan Quartet was very different than the Dave brubeck Quartet which was very different from the Lighthouse All Stars.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Maybe Blue Note was trying, but the musicians didn't seem to be co-operating

One interesting thing about Soul Jazz is that the musicians have all sorts of different backgrounds: Swing; Blues; R&B; Soul; Funk; Gospel; Bebop; Hard Bop. And they bring different ideas from these other kinds of music.

For example, Baby Face Willette's albums were quite different to Fred Jackson's, even though Jackson was on one of Willette's. And both were quite different from Ike Quebec's albums with Freddie Roach, which were quite different from Roach's own albums. And all of this was different from what Lou Donaldson was doing with Willette and Patton. And different from what Patton was doing as a leader. And Don Wilkerson was different, and so was Harold Vick. And all of this with some of the same people - like Grant Green and Ben Dixon - running through many of the albums. (And this is just to think about Blue Note. When you add in Prestige - with people like Jaws/Scott; Arnett; Jug; Red Holloway; J H Smith; Forrest - and Riverside - with people like Johnny Lytle and Cannonball/Nat - Argo - with Ramsey Lewis & Al Grey - and PJ, with McCann, Holmes etc etc... Then add in vocalists like Della Reese, Nancy Wilson, Etta Jones, Lou Rawls.)

Because Soul Jazz probably isn't one thing; it could probably be thought of as an umbrella term covering a multitude of different styles with, as their only (or at least main) common denominator, their orientation towards the popular black market.

MG

Yes, but that same sort of variety can be found within most musical genres. Take for example what we think of as "West Coast Jazz". The Mulligan Quartet was very different than the Dave brubeck Quartet which was very different from the Lighthouse All Stars.

Mm, but can it be found in Hard Bop?

MG

[danasgoodstuff]

And vice-versa as well?

Yes, absolutely, and back and forth and on and on, etc. in infinite array.

[Peter Friedman]

Maybe Blue Note was trying, but the musicians didn't seem to be co-operating

One interesting thing about Soul Jazz is that the musicians have all sorts of different backgrounds: Swing; Blues; R&B; Soul; Funk; Gospel; Bebop; Hard Bop. And they bring different ideas from these other kinds of music.

For example, Baby Face Willette's albums were quite different to Fred Jackson's, even though Jackson was on one of Willette's. And both were quite different from Ike Quebec's albums with Freddie Roach, which were quite different from Roach's own albums. And all of this was different from what Lou Donaldson was doing with Willette and Patton. And different from what Patton was doing as a leader. And Don Wilkerson was different, and so was Harold Vick. And all of this with some of the same people - like Grant Green and Ben Dixon - running through many of the albums. (And this is just to think about Blue Note. When you add in Prestige - with people like Jaws/Scott; Arnett; Jug; Red Holloway; J H Smith; Forrest - and Riverside - with people like Johnny Lytle and Cannonball/Nat - Argo - with Ramsey Lewis & Al Grey - and PJ, with McCann, Holmes etc etc... Then add in vocalists like Della Reese, Nancy Wilson, Etta Jones, Lou Rawls.)

Because Soul Jazz probably isn't one thing; it could probably be thought of as an umbrella term covering a multitude of different styles with, as their only (or at least main) common denominator, their orientation towards the popular black market.

MG

Yes, but that same sort of variety can be found within most musical genres. Take for example what we think of as "West Coast Jazz". The Mulligan Quartet was very different than the Dave brubeck Quartet which was very different from the Lighthouse All Stars.

Mm, but can it be found in Hard Bop?

MG

Yes, I think it can. Coltrane's "Giant Steps is quite different from Horace Silver's "Further Explorations". Sonny Rollins "Worktime" is quite different from Wayne Shorter's "Speak No Evil". Andrew Hill's "Black Fire" is very different from the Miles Davis "Bag's Groove" session. Mingus "Ah Um" sounds very different from Art Farmer's "Modern Art" album.

Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis and Johnny Griffin "Battle Stations" sounds different from Bobby Hutcherson's "Total Eclipse".

Edited November 24, 2008 by Peter Friedman

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Yes, I think it can. Coltrane's "Giant Steps is quite different from Horace Silver's "Further Explorations". Sonny Rollins "Worktime" is quite different from Wayne Shorter's "Speak No Evil". Andrew Hill's "Black Fire" is very different from the Miles Davis "Bag's Groove" session. Mingus "Ah Um" sounds very different from Art Farmer's "Modern Art" album.

Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis and Johnny Griffin "Battle Stations" sounds different from Bobby Hutcherson's "Total Eclipse".

Interesting list. I only have four of those, and haven't heard any of the others, so what you're saying isn't perfectly clear to me. But it does illustrate that where one stands affects one's viewpoint

I have "Further explorations" and "Battle stations" of course. I see those two as straddling the boundary (if we want to say it's a boundary - it's not that clearly delineated) between Hard Bop and Soul Jazz. And from my perspective, they're Soul Jazz with a Hard Bop feel.

The other two I have are "Ah um" and "Total eclipse". Yes, I can certainly see a difference But it does seem to me that they're doing similar things in their own, extremely individual, ways. That doesn't seem to be the case if you compare, say, Gene Ammons, Grover Washington Jr and Eddie Harris. Or Al Grey, Fred Wesley and Harold Betters.

MG