Hoops 2008-2009

[Soulstation1]

How many NBA rings do you own?

LOL

[Chalupa]

How many NBA rings do you own?

LOL

How many would he own if he hadn't coached Jordan/Pippen and Shaq/Kobe??

[Patrick]

Must answer this question: Zero.

Kobe laying bricks at the line. He's so much a better "closer" than LeBron. Right.

[Aggie87]

If the Magic can hold court and win out at home, Game 7 could be interesting!

I'd rather see a 2-2-1-1-1 format than a 2-3-2 though. I think the former is a bit more fair.

[Soulstation1]

IMO

You can thank the 1980's lakers and celtics for changing the finals to the 2 3 2 format

CBS hated going cross country 3 times for games 5 6 and 7

[Soulstation1]

I ain't going argue with JH

JH knows the rulebook better than a guy with 11 total NBA rings

IMO

Food for thought

But how many rings did MJ Pippen Shaq Mamba own pre Phil Jackson?

How come nobody never says how many rings Red Auerbach would have won without Russell and the 6 or 8 HOFers that played at various times

Celts were stacked with more HOFers during their run

than any of Phils squads

Lol

Edited June 10, 2009 by Soulstation1

[Noj]

The Magic shot 75% in the first half (an NBA Finals record) and 63% for the game, and the Lakers still could have won had they made their free throws. I can't remember the last time Kobe missed more than two free throws.

[Soulstation1]

It is funny when things don't go the Mamba's way

IMO

[Noj]

Not for me. The endless hate for Kobe makes me want to vomit. Any mistake he makes is magnified, and anything he does right is understated or misstated. This stupid "best closer" label is completely inaccurate--he's at his best when he just plays within the system and shares the ball. When he's forcing up bad shots, the Lakers lose.

It's Kobe's work ethic that rubbed off on LeBron, Howard, Deron Williams, CP3, DWade, etc. They all became better players because of Kobe, and have said so. The vast majority of players in the NBA like and respect Kobe.

The guy is a great player who gets a bad rap for shit people don't have any right or authority or verifiable information to judge him by. They err on the side of guilt and choose to see him in a negative light.

[paul secor]

But how many rings did MJ Pippen Shaq Mamba own pre Phil Jackson?

How come nobody never says how many rings Red Auerbach would have won without Russell and the 6 or 8 HOFers that played at various times

Celts were stacked with more HOFers during their run

than any of Phils squads

Glad you brought these things up. The folks who knock Jackson never do.

[Soulstation1]

Since 1991

Phil Jackson 9 rings

All the rest 9 rings

Gregg Popovich 4 rings

R Tomjanovich 2 rings

Doc Rivers 1 ring

Pat Riley 1 ring

Larry Brown 1 ring

Only 3.active coaches plus Phil have rings in the league

[Aggie87]

The guy is a great player who gets a bad rap for shit people don't have any right or authority or verifiable information to judge him by. They err on the side of guilt and choose to see him in a negative light.

I'm guilty of this, and don't think I'll ever get past it. Sorry, Noj, but I'm trying to be honest.

I'm convinced he paid that girl off to drop the charges, and that he was guilty.

I have no proof, just what I believe happened.

PS - I otherwise like the Lakers.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Aggie87

[Chalupa]

I ain't going argue with JH

JH knows the rulebook better than a guy with 11 total NBA rings

IMO

Food for thought

But how many rings did MJ Pippen Shaq Mamba own pre Phil Jackson?

How come nobody never says how many rings Red Auerbach would have won without Russell and the 6 or 8 HOFers that played at various times

Celts were stacked with more HOFers during their run

than any of Phils squads

Lol

Sigh....

OK look. For someone, like Phil, who has spent over 30 years in the NBA he should know the rules better than I. I never said that I knew the rules better. I said that he needed to brush up on them because he clearly doesn't understand the current NBA goaltending rule. Here's the link from my earlier post....

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_11.html

Section I- A Player Shall Not:

i. Vibrate the rim or backboard so as to cause the ball to make an unnatural bounce.

Did any of Gasol's actions cause the rim/backboard to vibrate?? No. The officials made the correct call - no goaltending.

As for your 2nd point we all know that those two tandems had zero NBA rings before teaming up w/ Phil but that has more to do with the talent that surrounded them then w/ coaching. Jordan was in the same boat as LeBron until Pippen came along, and Pippen had only been in the league for two years when Jackson started coaching the Bulls and hadn't fully developed. IMO those two get a pass. Now you could make an argument that Shaq should have won it when he was teamed w/ Penny in Orlando and if Nick Anderson had not bricked his 4 free throws in the 4th quarter of game 1 he may have. However Kobe was only 20 at the end of the last season before Phil was hired to coach the Lakers. So it would be unfair to say that the Shaq/Kobe tandem should have won a ring before Phil. But let's turn this around and ask how many championships did Phil win w/ out those two tandems? Zip. Shaq at least got another ring w/ Miami.

As to your Auerbach/Jackson debate – There’s no question that Auerbach won w/ incredibly talented teams. He definitely had more talent (7 HoFers compared to 4 possibly 5 for Phil). Regardless, I would give the edge to Jackson because when Red coached you didn't have to mollycoddle millionaire ballplayers w/ egos that could fill the Grand Canyon. Chuck Daly was right - it’s a player’s league now; and because of that dynamic coaches have to deal w/ a lot more b.s. then they had to when Auerbach reigned in Beantown. To tell you the truth I think they are both a bit overrated. Not saying that they aren't great - they are - but give me Larry Brown over those two any day. YMMV.

Flame suit on.

Edited June 11, 2009 by J.H. Deeley

[Noj]

Since 1991

Phil Jackson 9 rings

All the rest 9 rings

Gregg Popovich 4 rings

R Tomjanovich 2 rings

Doc Rivers 1 ring

Pat Riley 1 ring

Larry Brown 1 ring

Only 3.active coaches plus Phil have rings in the league

Why "Since 1991?"

Pat Riley = 6× NBA Champion (1972 as player), (1982, 1985, 1987-1988, 2006 as coach).

'88 was guaranteed, too.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Noj

[Chalupa]

Allen Iverson and Bruce Hornsby ????

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-7-10...nsby--1993.html

[Patrick]

How many future HOFers has Phil Jackson developed? I can't think of any offhand. Yes, he is a fine coach with an outstanding record of success. No one can argue that. But is he really in some sacred stratosphere above the rest? I remember him sitting there on the Bulls bench as an assistant, quietly minding his time while Doug Collins had to try to manage Jordan, babysit Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant (which was painful at times), and try to get wins with a large collection of mediocre players (Dave Corzine, Charles Davis, Brad Sellers, Sam Vincent, Will Perdue). Once they got Pippen and Grant out of diapers, Doug is shown the door and Phil steps in.

Make Phil the coach of the Raptors or Hawks (each with at least one AllStar caliber player today)--does he get them to the conference finals in 2 or 3 years? Or faster than Collins, Poppovich, Sloan, Tomjanovich, Wilkens, Daly, etc would? Suppose you need the Raptors or Hawks to win a second or third round playoff series. Is Phil your obvious choice to coach them? Not for me.

Talented coach, but a whole lotta right time/right place. And too much fawning over his impressive record (same goes for Auerbach in my book).

Maybe I'm suffering from zen fatigue.

[Soulstation1]

Magic needs this game tonight

When Howard gets the ball he waits and waits and waits for the defense to triple team him

When he gets the ball he needs to make his move

[Soulstation1]

They say Howard can bench press 275 lbs

[Aggie87]

Nice shot by Fisher to send tonight's game into OT. Jameer Nelson shoulda been guarding him a bit closer though.

And a bad play by the Magic to end the 4th qtr - there should have been alot better shot set up than the one that Pietrus got off.

[JSngry]

Derek Fisher & playoff 3s...that cat's got a mojo like that.

re: Jackson...I heard a lot of the same things about Riley/Lakers back in the day, and yeah, it's all true, but just as far as it goes. I say you gotta give props to a coach like Jackson (or riley) for keeping those egos & ambitions disciplined and on the same page over the course of a season. You saw it this evening. Crunch time came, and the Heat wilted. Crunch time came and the Lakers bent but did not break. Crunch time came and now the Lakers are up 3-1.

To me, that speaks to a team's mental maturity, and that is something I give full credit for to good coaching. How 'bout the Lakers post-Shaq near-meltdown? Talk about some mental sad-sacks...But they built back up, and now they're focused like none other. That shit don't happen by accident.

If "great talent" was all it took for a team to become a champion...

[Noj]

Derek Fucking Fisher. Retire his number. I'm absolutely beside myself. One of the best Laker victories ever, right up there with Fisher .04 and Horry's three. Totally stoked. Let's go Lakers, close them out.

[Soulstation1]

Nice shot by D Fish

Bad free throws by D Howard with 11 seconds left in the game

[papsrus]

Watched the game last night. Magic repeatedly gave it away, IMO. They simply don't have the killer instinct. Don't know how to finish. If they did, they could just as easily be up 3-1 in this series. They should have fouled Fisher as soon as he crossed half court, yes? They shouldn't have double-teamed the ball on the inbounds, right? Nobody should have been defending inside the 3-point line, correct? Only through a series of defensive meltdowns on that one play does Fisher even get off a clean shot. They gave it to him. Literally.

But aside from that total screw-up, they should have made some free throws down the stretch and the whole thing would have been moot. And what was that dude -- Pietrus, I think -- what was he doing just standing next to Kobe and giving him that 3-pointer? I mean, just standing beside him, not even in front of him, let alone with his arms up. wtf? Did he think giving him the stink eye was going to unnerve Bryant? Is that some new defensive tactic we haven't seen before?

This is a good, solid -- but not great -- Laker team facing a Magic squad that doesn't have the killer instinct, IMHO.

Fisher, now he's got the killer instinct. And Kobe is making all the right plays, even if he does whine too much when he doesn't get every last call. That's just his competitiveness. Amazing player.

Speaking of calls, I thought the officiating was weird. What seemed like ticky tacky calls in the early going put the Lakers in a real bind, then a blatant elbow to the head by Bryant when he threw that pass out to Fisher doesn't get called? What's the deal with that? ... Having said that, it seemed like a pretty physical game, especially in the paint, so probably a no-win for the officials no matter how they tried to control it.

[Aggie87]

Watched the game last night. Magic repeatedly gave it away, IMO. They simply don't have the killer instinct. Don't know how to finish. If they did, they could just as easily be up 3-1 in this series. They should have fouled Fisher as soon as he crossed half court, yes? They shouldn't have double-teamed the ball on the inbounds, right? Nobody should have been defending inside the 3-point line, correct? Only through a series of defensive meltdowns on that one play does Fisher even get off a clean shot. They gave it to him. Literally.

But aside from that total screw-up, they should have made some free throws down the stretch and the whole thing would have been moot. And what was that dude -- Pietrus, I think -- what was he doing just standing next to Kobe and giving him that 3-pointer? I mean, just standing beside him, not even in front of him, let alone with his arms up. wtf? Did he think giving him the stink eye was going to unnerve Bryant? Is that some new defensive tactic we haven't seen before?

This is a good, solid -- but not great -- Laker team facing a Magic squad that doesn't have the killer instinct, IMHO.

Fisher, now he's got the killer instinct. And Kobe is making all the right plays, even if he does whine too much when he doesn't get every last call. That's just his competitiveness. Amazing player.

Speaking of calls, I thought the officiating was weird. What seemed like ticky tacky calls in the early going put the Lakers in a real bind, then a blatant elbow to the head by Bryant when he threw that pass out to Fisher doesn't get called? What's the deal with that? ... Having said that, it seemed like a pretty physical game, especially in the paint, so probably a no-win for the officials no matter how they tried to control it.

I agree with your comments.

Magic gave this game away, particularly at the free throw line. Make a few more during regulation, and they win this game.

And if that elbow to Nelson's head had been called, they may win the game too.

Either way, the Magic aren't quite there yet. But I think they play team ball better than the Lakers, in many ways.

[Noj]

Speaking of calls, I thought the officiating was weird. What seemed like ticky tacky calls in the early going put the Lakers in a real bind, then a blatant elbow to the head by Bryant when he threw that pass out to Fisher doesn't get called? What's the deal with that? ... Having said that, it seemed like a pretty physical game, especially in the paint, so probably a no-win for the officials no matter how they tried to control it.

It doesn't surprise me that there was no call on that play, mouthpiece boy was moving and they owed the Lakers about 25 whistles. We can go through the laundry list of muggings they let Howard get away with--including shoving Gasol in the back which was called a foul on Gasol, reaching across Ariza's body with a virtual bear hug for what should have been his 5th foul but instead was called a jump ball, and setting more blatantly moving picks without getting it called than anyone since Chris Webber and the Sacramento Queens. Add to that the fact that Turkoglu pushes off on every single jumper to create room, uncalled touch fouls when Kobe gets hit on the arm by Pietrus, and the phantom whistles on Bynum...

The Lakers shot zero free throws in the 4th quarter to the Magic's 13 attempts.