Jimmy Carl Black

[Alexander Hawkins]

p.s. worth adding that that same trio has a newer (last year???) studio thing out on Boxholder...I haven't heard it yet, so can't comment however!

[JSngry]

http://classicshowbiz.blogspot.com/2008/11...-1938-2008.html

[AmirBagachelles]

I wasn't aware that Zappa tried to wash away original MOI drums/bass on We're Only In It for Money, only was aware of same for Reuben and the Jets, for which Ryko's in-print edition still has the revised parts. I didn't experience enough Zappa on vinyl in the 70s to want to go back and hear the difference, but I will say that the original MOI and 70s Zappa groups sound like good, passionate performers, but much of Zappa's live music in the 80s sounds like it was performed by robotic virtuousos, the kind who fronted many a Boston/midwest hair band (e.g. Rush). There is some humanity missing among the synth-y flash.

My pitch for FZ: Regardless of how he treated his cohorts, Zappa is among the few artistic giants from the the 60s/70s rock era. I recommend all his records except Fillmore and Just Another Band from L.A., up through You Are What You Is. They are all fun and interesting, and feature outstanding instrumental rock and important social/sexual satire. The archival releases coming out now (often mixed by Zappa himself years ago) are top notch too.

[AllenLowe]

Zappa definitely thought his first band was technically lacking, and liked the fact that the newer guys could just read through and play the stuff - classic case of not seeing the forest for the trees. The real unfortunate thing about that first band, I've always thought, is that they were the group that put Zappa on the map, they were essential to his whole ethos, and they were great, and when he was becoming a star he fired them. And I'm pretty sure he got all the publishing money, even though you can make the argument that so much of that early stuff was collaborative (of course you than get into an Ellington-type argument here which says, what did these guys do of equal quality away from the band?) But I've always though that, with groups like this, the leader has an obligation to offer some kind of stake when he becomes wealthy. Unfortunately it almost never happens - think Ray Charles, James Brown, Elvis - they never looked back and sidemen be damned, they were just sidemen, the musical equivalent of working stiffs.

[Big Wheel]

  AmirBagachelles said:

I wasn't aware that Zappa tried to wash away original MOI drums/bass on We're Only In It for Money, only was aware of same for Reuben and the Jets, for which Ryko's in-print edition still has the revised parts. I didn't experience enough Zappa on vinyl in the 70s to want to go back and hear the difference, but I will say that the original MOI and 70s Zappa groups sound like good, passionate performers, but much of Zappa's live music in the 80s sounds like it was performed by robotic virtuousos, the kind who fronted many a Boston/midwest hair band (e.g. Rush). There is some humanity missing among the synth-y flash.

My pitch for FZ: Regardless of how he treated his cohorts, Zappa is among the few artistic giants from the the 60s/70s rock era. I recommend all his records except Fillmore and Just Another Band from L.A., up through You Are What You Is. They are all fun and interesting, and feature outstanding instrumental rock and important social/sexual satire. The archival releases coming out now (often mixed by Zappa himself years ago) are top notch too.

You're talking about the Fillmore 1971 record with the Turtles? What's wrong with that one? (I've only heard samples but they seemed ok to me...)

[7/4]

Also low on my favorites list, Fillmore and Just Another Band from L.A. have an imbalance in the comedy/music ratio.

Too much comedy.

.

[Д.Д.]

  AllenLowe said:

Zappa definitely thought his first band was technically lacking, and liked the fact that the newer guys could just read through and play the stuff - classic case of not seeing the forest for the trees. The real unfortunate thing about that first band, I've always thought, is that they were the group that put Zappa on the map, they were essential to his whole ethos, and they were great, and when he was becoming a star he fired them. And I'm pretty sure he got all the publishing money, even though you can make the argument that so much of that early stuff was collaborative (of course you than get into an Ellington-type argument here which says, what did these guys do of equal quality away from the band?) But I've always though that, with groups like this, the leader has an obligation to offer some kind of stake when he becomes wealthy. Unfortunately it almost never happens - think Ray Charles, James Brown, Elvis - they never looked back and sidemen be damned, they were just sidemen, the musical equivalent of working stiffs.

Zappa treating his sidemen badly is a common unfortunate misconception - if anything, I have not heard any other band leader being talked about in such revering, admiring and superlative terms by his sideman - there are dozens of FZ sidemen interviews available online.

Original MOI contributing to FZ compositions is another myth (repudiated many times by the Mothers themselves). Financially they were actually treated quite well during their time with the Mothers.

Since Ellington was mentioned, here is an appropriate FZ quote:

FZ in "The Real Frank Zappa Book" (1989): "In 1969, George Wein, impresario of the Newport Jazz Festival, decided it would be a tremendous idea to put the Mothers of Invention on a jazz tour of the East Coast. We wound up working in a package with Kirk, Duke Ellington and Gary Burton in Miami at the Jai Alai Fronton, and at another gig in South Carolina. The touring package did not carry its own PA - we had to use whatever speakers existed in each of the venues we were booked into. The hall in South Carolina was rigged with small jukebox speakers, set in a ring around the building. Useless, but there we were - we had to play the show. Before we went on, I saw Duke Ellington begging - pleading - for a ten-dollar advance. It was really depressing. After that show, I told the guys: 'That's it - we're breaking the band up.' We'd been together in one configuration or another for about five years at that point, and suddenly EVERYTHING looked utterly hopeless to me. If Duke Ellington had to beg some George Wein assistant backstage for ten bucks, what the fuck was I doing with a ten-piece band, trying to play rock and roll - or something that was almost rock and roll?"

Edited November 10, 2008 by Д.Д.

[AllenLowe]

b.s., sorry, that story about Ellington begging for $10 has as much credibility as the one about the Rolling Stones watching Muddy Waters paint the Chess offices - completely fabricated. Anybody who knows anything about Ellington knows that it's utter invention -

as for treatment of the band - I am SURE it was a great time and better than what they experienced before - but how much publishing did ANY of the guys receive? it's not an either/or - they were discarded rather shabbily, and more than one said that at the time - as for collaboration on compositions, read the history of the band - Frank was the auteur but he could have not sounded like he did without that original band - and, ANYWAY, that's not what I said - my point was that, since they were not going to get mechanicals or publishing, it behooved Zappa (as it behooved James Brown, Ray Charles, and Elvis) to recognize how much they had allowed him to shape his ideas in the very beginning, how they contributed to his stardom. None of which he did. And those guys were left scuffling when he dumped them, don't fool yourself -

Edited November 10, 2008 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

  7/4 said:

Also low on my favorites list, Fillmore and Just Another Band from L.A. have an imbalance in the comedy/music ratio.

Too much comedy.

I'll respectfully disagree. Those are favorites of mine. Billy The Mountain is a freakin' epic!

I will say, though, that hearing them as I did in "real time", it was a bit frustrating to see people think of The Mothers as basically a "comedy" band once their WB/Bizarre sides started getting some play. Those of us who had been on board before knew better.

Having said all that, I still think quite highly of those two as part of a well-balanced Zappa diet (and fwiw, I pretty much lose interest after 1975 or so...)

[7/4]

from Uncle Meat:

If We'd All Been Living In California...

FZ: Ok? Now if you still want to get your name in magazines he wants five hundred dollars a month!

JCB: Where does it come from? We worked one gig this month. And now, so, what do we get, two hundred dollars for this gig up here, if we're lucky. If we're lucky, we'll get two hundred. And it'll be two weeks before we get it. Probably. I mean a- . . . after all, uh . . . what is all this shit in the, uh, in the newspaper? We sh-, if we got such a big name, how come, uh . . . we're. . .

FZ: That shit in the news . . .

JCB: We're starving, man! This fucking band is starving! And we've been starving for three years. I realize it takes a long time, but God damn does it take another five, ten years from now?

FZ: There's some months when you're not gonna work as much as other months. There's some months when you're gonna make a lot of money, and if you average it out, you do make more than two hundred dollars a month.

JCB: Expenses are sure high, too. If we'd all been living in California, it would've been different.

FZ: If we'd all been living in California, we wouldn't work at all!

JCB: Ah that's -- true . . . Well, we're not working n-now anyway! We worked one gig this month, Frank! What's wrong with getting two months in a row of this good money? Or three months in a row? Then we can afford to take three or four months off and everybody can . . . After the first month I can get just enough ahead, but if I had two more months, man, I'll get ahead. 'Cause I'm not living very extravagantly, I'll tell you for sure . . .

[7/4]

  JSngry said:

  7/4 said:

Also low on my favorites list, Fillmore and Just Another Band from L.A. have an imbalance in the comedy/music ratio.

Too much comedy.

I'll respectfully disagree. Those are favorites of mine. Billy The Mountain is a freakin' epic!

I will say, though, that hearing them as I did in "real time", it was a bit frustrating to see people think of The Mothers as basically a "comedy" band once their WB/Bizarre sides started getting some play. Those of us who had been on board before knew better.

Having said all that, I still think quite highly of those two as part of a well-balanced Zappa diet (and fwiw, I pretty much lose interest after 1975 or so...)

I'll listen again soon and see if my experience changes. Those early albums were not part of my original experience and it's been a while since I've listened to them. Maybe this is more like where I'm coming from.

[JSngry]

Oh, and regarding Jimmy Carl Black & "fate" as it pertains to the music business - I lived in Albuquerque from early 1982 to mid-1984. I had heard that JCB was from that area & was living there, so one of the first things I did when I got to town was to ask around, see what his scene was, if he was playing, jamming, gigging, whatever. Everybody said the same thing - that they heard that he was living "outside of" Cerillos ( http://www.ghosttowns.com/states/nm/cerillos.html ) & was working as a house painter. More than one person also added (and always animatedly) that if I found him, to let them know because he owed them money.

Knowing then as now (usually...) when to leave well enough alone (and to never lie to a sleeping dog), I called off the search pretty quickly.

[7/4]

  JSngry said:

More than one person also added (and always animatedly) that if I found him, to let them know because he owed them money.

[Hot Ptah]

  AllenLowe said:

b.s., sorry, that story about Ellington begging for $10 has as much credibility as the one about the Rolling Stones watching Muddy Waters paint the Chess offices - completely fabricated. Anybody who knows anything about Ellington knows that it's utter invention -

as for treatment of the band - I am SURE it was a great time and better than what they experienced before - but how much publishing did ANY of the guys receive? it's not an either/or - they were discarded rather shabbily, and more than one said that at the time - as for collaboration on compositions, read the history of the band - Frank was the auteur but he could have not sounded like he did without that original band - and, ANYWAY, that's not what I said - my point was that, since they were not going to get mechanicals or publishing, it behooved Zappa (as it behooved James Brown, Ray Charles, and Elvis) to recognize how much they had allowed him to shape his ideas in the very beginning, how they contributed to his stardom. None of which he did. And those guys were left scuffling when he dumped them, don't fool yourself -

I had read about Frank dumping the original group and his opinions about their technical shortcomings. So I was surprised when I saw Zappa live in November, 1975, and Roy Estrada was back in the band on bass. This was much more of a jazz/rock fusion group, with an emphasis on extended improvised solos. The band members were Andre Lewis, Norma Jean Bell, Napolean Murphy Brock and Terry Bozzio, in addition to Estrada and Zappa.

During that concert, Estrada fit in well and did not seem to struggle at all with the fusion music. Zappa scornfully introduced a solo by drummer Bozzio with "here is your new hero, your new Alphonse Mouzon on drums!" Zappa introduced his own extended solo by saying, "and here is your hero, John McLaughlin, on guitar!" again, in a scornful voice. There was quite a negative vibe from the stage--several people commented on it to me after the show. The vocals were weak and Zappa did not seem happy at all onstage.

So by 1975, Frank seemed to be tired of the jazz rock fusion scene, and to not value instrumental chops much. In 1969, he spoke negatively of his sidemen who did not have chops. Who could win with him?

[JSngry]

I saw that same band...Estrada (who, remember, went on to be in the original Little Feat) ended the concert by walking around stage in a Frankenstein-like stagger, culminating in "vomit" coming out of his mouth in a seemingly endless stream.

I also remember it being a heavily instrumental concert. vocals were there to frame the instrumental music, not vice-versa.

[Hot Ptah]

  JSngry said:

I saw that same band...Estrada (who, remember, went on to be in the original Little Feat) ended the concert by walking around stage in a Frankenstein-like stagger, culminating in "vomit" coming out of his mouth in a seemingly endless stream.

I also remember it being a heavily instrumental concert. vocals were there to frame the instrumental music, not vice-versa.

When I saw that band, the song "Illinois Enema Bandit" was introduced, and as Zappa read the news story about the actual Illinois enema bandit, Estrada was dressed like the bandit. He kept playing his bass the entire time. So a wool stocking cap that covers the face, with just little eye, nose and mouth holes was placed over his head, a hot water bottle was strapped to his side, and a long plastic tube was put in his mouth, among other wardrobe enhancements. Estrada was a very large physical man and it was very odd to see him decked out like that, as he kept on playing his bass as if nothing was happening.

I remember that Napolean Murphy Brock sang lead for much of that concert and you couldn't make out many of the words because he sang with such highly exaggerated emotion in his voice. It was annoying. Norma Jean Bell was supposed to sing too, but she had a tiny, shy voice, which did not work very well for the material. She played a very good soprano sax solo though, I remember.

[7/4]

[Royal Oak]

  7/4 said:

Also low on my favorites list, Fillmore and Just Another Band from L.A. have an imbalance in the comedy/music ratio.

Too much comedy.

.

I haven't heard those records for many years, but I remember "Billy The Mountain" blowing my mind as a 16 year-old. That said, I have a weakness for Flo and Eddie (even their "Moving Targets" record)

Edited November 15, 2008 by rdavenport

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

the only zappa bootlegs ive regularly listened to are shows from 1974 and 1981. ive been scared to delve into the world of frank concerts just casue its going to be so daunting to try and do it the way i wanna do it.

right now i am listening to zappas pre-Freak Out! discography

the thing i notice in franks early singles, on one song he can be really funky, on the next he can play blues as good as bb king, on another song, he might play jazz, on yet another, now hes in a "garage" rock type of vein, the variety on the singles is great

he recorded under many different band names for labels such as DEL-FI back in the early 60s.....chewy recommendation: i highly recommended seeking this stuff out: to research, try using he term: THE CUCOMONGA YEARS. as in rancho cucomonga, calif- where franks studio was

[Jim Alfredson]

  7/4 said:

from Uncle Meat:

If We'd All Been Living In California...

FZ: Ok? Now if you still want to get your name in magazines he wants five hundred dollars a month!

JCB: Where does it come from? We worked one gig this month. And now, so, what do we get, two hundred dollars for this gig up here, if we're lucky. If we're lucky, we'll get two hundred. And it'll be two weeks before we get it. Probably. I mean a- . . . after all, uh . . . what is all this shit in the, uh, in the newspaper? We sh-, if we got such a big name, how come, uh . . . we're. . .

FZ: That shit in the news . . .

JCB: We're starving, man! This fucking band is starving! And we've been starving for three years. I realize it takes a long time, but God damn does it take another five, ten years from now?

FZ: There's some months when you're not gonna work as much as other months. There's some months when you're gonna make a lot of money, and if you average it out, you do make more than two hundred dollars a month.

JCB: Expenses are sure high, too. If we'd all been living in California, it would've been different.

FZ: If we'd all been living in California, we wouldn't work at all!

JCB: Ah that's -- true . . . Well, we're not working n-now anyway! We worked one gig this month, Frank! What's wrong with getting two months in a row of this good money? Or three months in a row? Then we can afford to take three or four months off and everybody can . . . After the first month I can get just enough ahead, but if I had two more months, man, I'll get ahead. 'Cause I'm not living very extravagantly, I'll tell you for sure . . .

Deja vu.