Jimmy Carl Black

[7/4]

Jimmy Carl Black of the Mothers of Invention passed away this weekend (cancer).

"Hi Boys and Girls, I'm Jimmy Carl Black, and I'm the Indian of the group."

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[7/4]

http://www.killuglyradio.com/2008/11/02/ri...mmy-carl-black/

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[AllenLowe]

damn - I was just reading about some new projects he was involved in -

one had to have either seen that original Zappa group, or have listened to the recordings, to know what a hip drummer he was -

[GregK]

damn - I was just reading about some new projects he was involved in -

one had to have either seen that original Zappa group, or have listened to the recordings, to know what a hip drummer he was -

Isn't that him drumming on King Kong on Uncle Meat? I've always liked that tune for, among other things, the drum sound.

[AllenLowe]

not sure - however, I was listening to an old live recording recently and I thought - that sounds like Tony Williams -

[BFrank]

I liked the note on his website.

RIP

Edited November 3, 2008 by BFrank

[Hot Ptah]

There was a CD reissue of "We're Only In It For the Money" on which Zappa had Terry Bozzio come in decades later and redo all of Jimmy Carl Black's drum parts. It doesn't sound right, for those who know the album in its original form. Black seems to have been one of those musicians with a truly personal sound.

Zappa's later CD reissues of that album had the Jimmy Carl Black drum parts restored.

[randissimo]

Met Jimmy Carl Black in the early 90's when he came through with the Grandmothers.. Interesting guy. Hung out with him and listened to his road stories... He was certainly a colorful addition to the Mothers Of Invention.

[Malraux]

"Geronimo Black", the self-named release by the band formed by Jimmy Carl Black in the early 70's is available on CD these days. A very powerful collection of uniquely composed songs and music which have lost none of their strength, even after thirty-five years of competition from an avalanche of genre-style copyists.

Malraux

[Hot Ptah]

"Geronimo Black", the self-named release by the band formed by Jimmy Carl Black in the early 70's is available on CD these days. A very powerful collection of uniquely composed songs and music which have lost none of their strength, even after thirty-five years of competition from an avalanche of genre-style copyists.

Malraux

Well, that is intriguing. I do not know who the many "genre-style copyists" are. Over thirty five years, we have had an avalanche of them? Somehow I missed it.

Who are these copyists?

[7/4]

I hardly know what to say about the demise of the great Jimmy Carl Black. I Emailed Roy Estrada that the world just won't seem the same without The Indian. He was one of those rare guys who lit up the whole room when he walked in. When you met Jim you liked him; and he was your friend for life. Jim was basically a good ole Texas boy with a little flower power mixed in. He was an open book to a fault, and was quick with his praise of others. I had some of the best times of my life around Jimmy Carl Black, all the while learning a little bit about rock n roll drumming. When we spoke on the phone a couple of weeks ago, I had a feeling that would be the last time. I'm very grateful that I had that opportunity.

Art Tripp

http://www.zappa.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15653

[clifford_thornton]

RIP. He will be missed in certain very broad circles.

[Malraux]

Hot Ptah,

Well, that is intriguing. I do not know who the many "genre-style copyists" are. Over thirty five years, we have had an avalanche of them? Somehow I missed it. Who are these copyists?

If you had not noticed, the music industry, in all its genres, is made up of very few innovators and countless thousands of copyists. One Zappa, thousands of copyists. One Joni Mitchell, thousands of copyists. One John Coltrane, thousands of copyists. One Pat Metheny, thousands of copyists. One Laura Nyro, thousands of copyists. One Keith Jarrett, thousands of copyists.......et al. Just take your pick.

It is of course not a sin to be a copyist, the industry flourishes on more than innovators.

Malraux

Edited November 4, 2008 by Malraux

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

are you joking about frank having terry bozzio re-do JCB's drum parts for MONEY? youre making a joke, right?

[Alexander Hawkins]

I'd really recommend the albums with Eugene Chadbourne and Pat Thomas - some bewildering, often brilliant, reworkings of Hendrix. RIP.

[Hot Ptah]

Hot Ptah,

Well, that is intriguing. I do not know who the many "genre-style copyists" are. Over thirty five years, we have had an avalanche of them? Somehow I missed it. Who are these copyists?

If you had not noticed, the music industry, in all its genres, is made up of very few innovators and countless thousands of copyists. One Zappa, thousands of copyists. One Joni Mitchell, thousands of copyists. One John Coltrane, thousands of copyists. One Pat Metheny, thousands of copyists. One Laura Nyro, thousands of copyists. One Keith Jarrett, thousands of copyists.......et al. Just take your pick.

It is of course not a sin to be a copyist, the industry flourishes on more than innovators.

Malraux

You misunderstood me. I truly want to know who copied Geronimo Black. I do not know who did, and would like to know.

[Hot Ptah]

are you joking about frank having terry bozzio re-do JCB's drum parts for MONEY? youre making a joke, right?

Well, I did not have that exactly right. Your post made me go back and look at my CD, and then go to the web for clarification.

Check this link: http://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/patio/vinylvscds/money.html

What happened is that Zappa originally remixed and reissued "We're Only In It For The Money" on a CD which also contained "Lumpy Gravy", in 1986. On this 1986 CD, he erased Roy Estrada's bass parts and Jimmy Carl Black's drum parts from "Money" and had Arthur Barrow and Chad Wackerman record new parts. It was Wackerman, not Terry Bozzio. He claimed at the time that the original tapes were in such poor condition that he had to do that.

I have a copy of the 1986 CD reissue. To me, "We're Only In It For The Money" does not sound right with the different bass and drum parts, as I am very familiar with the vinyl version (actually, versions, considering how many partially censored vinyl versions were released). It may be that Barrow and Wackerman were more technically skilled than Estrada and Black, but to my ears, there is a definite loss of feeling, of soul if you will. Also, there are odd little moments where Barrow or Wackerman really stick out where I think, oh no! It sounds to me like it would if someone dubbed Eddie Gomez over the original Jimmy Blanton bass parts on the 1940 Ellington classics.

In 1995, a new CD reissue of "We're Only In It For The Money" was released, with the original bass and drums parts by Roy Estrada and Jimmy Carl Black present. There is no audible damage to their parts, so the "poor condition of the tapes" idea seems to be incorrect. I like the 1995 CD reissue much better.

Edited November 4, 2008 by Hot Ptah

[Malraux]

Hot Ptha,

You misunderstood me. I truly want to know who copied Geronimo Black. I do not know who did, and would like to know.

On the contrary, I think you have chosen to misunderstand me.

If you are looking for a list of players who 'copied' Jimmy Carl Black's drumming and compositional style, then I cannot provide one, just as I cannot provide a list of players who 'copied' the drumming style of Elvin Jones, or those who copied Zappa's compositional style, yet their influence is quite obvious in numerous, nay thousands of recordings!. I am speaking, as I am sure you are aware, of innovators and copyists. "Geronimo Black" was an iconoclastic recording in many ways and a look at the background of the band members will give a clue as to why. This was and IS a unique album, not a clone - that is what I mean by innovation. Those who follow are not innovators.

Surely not so hard to understand!

Malraux.

[Hot Ptah]

Hot Ptha,

You misunderstood me. I truly want to know who copied Geronimo Black. I do not know who did, and would like to know.

On the contrary, I think you have chosen to misunderstand me.

If you are looking for a list of players who 'copied' Jimmy Carl Black's drumming and compositional style, then I cannot provide one, just as I cannot provide a list of players who 'copied' the drumming style of Elvin Jones, or those who copied Zappa's compositional style, yet their influence is quite obvious in numerous, nay thousands of recordings!. I am speaking, as I am sure you are aware, of innovators and copyists. "Geronimo Black" was an iconoclastic recording in many ways and a look at the background of the band members will give a clue as to why. This was and IS a unique album, not a clone - that is what I mean by innovation. Those who follow are not innovators.

Surely not so hard to understand!

Malraux.

I understand your original post much better now. I understand the concept of innovators and copyists, and agree that Black was an important musician.

[Ken Dryden]

Regardless of Jimmy Carl Black's skills as a drummer, Zappa's overdubbing of new bass and drum tracks on his vintage recordings made for an odd sound, to say the least. I think later remasters of his early Verve CDs restored the original bass and drums. I think he said in at least one interview that the original rhythm section was inadequate.

I'm surprised no on mentioned Black's vocal in "Lonesome Cowboy Burt" unless I missed a post."

Where's my waitress?

[7/4]

I'm surprised no on mentioned Black's vocal in "Lonesome Cowboy Burt" unless I missed a post."

Where's my waitress?

I mentioned it in a Zappa thread a few weeks ago.

[Hot Ptah]

Regardless of Jimmy Carl Black's skills as a drummer, Zappa's overdubbing of new bass and drum tracks on his vintage recordings made for an odd sound, to say the least. I think later remasters of his early Verve CDs restored the original bass and drums. I think he said in at least one interview that the original rhythm section was inadequate.

I'm surprised no on mentioned Black's vocal in "Lonesome Cowboy Burt" unless I missed a post."

Where's my waitress?

I can't find the interview that you are referring to, but I remember reading an interview of that sort. In fact, he was pretty harsh in the interview I remember. When I read it I thought that he was not being fair to Estrada or Black.

[RogerF]

Regardless of Jimmy Carl Black's skills as a drummer, Zappa's overdubbing of new bass and drum tracks on his vintage recordings made for an odd sound, to say the least. I think later remasters of his early Verve CDs restored the original bass and drums. I think he said in at least one interview that the original rhythm section was inadequate.

I'm surprised no on mentioned Black's vocal in "Lonesome Cowboy Burt" unless I missed a post."

Where's my waitress?

I can't find the interview that you are referring to, but I remember reading an interview of that sort. In fact, he was pretty harsh in the interview I remember. When I read it I thought that he was not being fair to Estrada or Black.

There's an obituary on Jimmy in today's Guardian online here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/nov/04/popandrock

[clifford_thornton]

I'd really recommend the albums with Eugene Chadbourne and Pat Thomas - some bewildering, often brilliant, reworkings of Hendrix. RIP.

That thing really turned my ear on end, and I'm not sure in the most positive way. But hey, somebody's gotta do these sorts of things, right... ?

Never liked Zappa at all. But that's just me. Obviously they, and Jimmy, were doing SOMETHING even if it wasn't my shit.

[Alexander Hawkins]

I know what you mean...I think maybe enjoyed it so much just because it was so confrontational and weird...but yes - great that someone does it!