New Project: Looking for Suggestions

[John L]

Thanks, Jim. Those are interesting thoughts.

As we get older, we seem to have a tendency to look back more often, and that makes sense as an ever larger part of our life and identity starts to lie back there. Very old people often do nothing but think about the past.

You seem to be combatting that process actively, and that is probably a good way of keeping yourself fresh and relevant. On the other hand, the past can offer a lot of satisfaction as well. I indulge in that satisfaction quite often, and without guilt or fear of losing touch with the present.

[seeline]

Jim, I think you've outlined most of the conundrums that face historians. (Of all kinds.)

[JSngry]

I hear ya'. I'm not trying to "kill" my past, couldn't even if i wanted to. Just making sure that it doesn't take up real estate that might yet be developed, that's all. And when there's no more of that to be had, hey, it's time to die, no problem. Nothing sadder (to me, anyway) than not being able to find anything in the here & now worth getting engaged in. I really would rather be dead, seriously.

Later than I'd have liked, I realize that the key to having a good tomorrow is to not fuck up today any more than you can keep from fucking it up.

It seems obvious now, but....

[AllenLowe]

whoa, a lot has happened since I started this - these are big issues, hard to address (just starting to write the book, so I will face it soon) - however - as Jim asked:

"Are we seriously entertaining the notion that white songwriters just all of a sudden started writing "blues" songs out of some random impulse & that black performers said, "hey, I like that, wish I'd thought of it!"? "

actually, in another way, that's a real possibility - as Charles Keil, theorized once, it is quite possible that the first blues were the result of white attempts to codify and "organize" black sources. There were songs with the classic blues progression that were NOT blues (eg Frankie and Johnny) and it is indeed possible that a professional, white songwriter heard the kind of couplets that black country singers were singing, saw the harmonic possibilities, and combined the two - I actually doubt this, but it is not out of the realm of possibility. I will be consulting Peter Muir, who has looked into this exact thing. There were also black pros, and there was a very active form of song that Dick Spottswood has called "gospel songs written for the minstrel stage." Like "Oh Dem Golden Slippers" and "Poor Mourner." As for white prose, white showbiz types have long made it a point to check out what black musicians were doing and maybe "borrow" a few things - this was very common, for example, in the first 20 years of the century in NYC's ragtime/club scene.

as for what may have been the initial blues form inspiration, the key is probably the couplet - as in, "goin down the road feelin bad/goin' down the road feelin' bad/goin' down the road feelin' bad/ and I ain''t gonna be treated this way" -

that's an early one - but more on that later, as I've said -

as for Seroff and Abbott's books, ESSENTIAL reading - and worth the money if you can manage it.

as for the past and the present, they are all the same. I make no distinction. It is now, it is then. Proof of this is the result of certain kinds of brain stimulation during neurosurgery - events start to appear to whomever's brain is being stimulated and they appear with immediacy, as though they are happening in the present. So I don't just embrace the past I seek it out, acquire it, work it, welcome it, because I cannot get away from it. Things that happened 40 years ago are occuring as we speak; the sooner we realize this, the sooner we'll get some rest -

Edited November 4, 2008 by AllenLowe

[seeline]

Things that happened 40 years ago are occuring as we speak; the sooner we realize this, the sooner we'll get some rest -

Very true!

Also, i think you're dead on re. the possibility of a white songwriter having "borrowed" something early on - that maybe something found its way into print (as sheet music or on a piano roll) before any black pro songwriter was able to get a blues (or song with blues chord progressions) published.

But that view presupposes what you're saying about things "occurring as we speak," which makes complete sense to me. (But then, I've been hanging out with people who do this sort of thing for a living for the past 18 years or so, and I've got academic training as an art historian - in the visual arts, the past is constantly "in" the "present." No getting away from it!)

BTW, what's the status of piano rolls in all of this, or is that an open question?

Edited to add: i wish someone would resell Seroff's books for under 60.00 per title!

Edited November 4, 2008 by seeline

[AllenLowe]

don't know much about piano rolls - however, the pianist Dick Zimmerman has done a lot of research on old blues-related sheet music, so I will have to contact him -

yes, it's crazy how much those books cost, but they are quite revelatory - the other book that I find essential is Lawrence Levine, "Black Culture and Black Consciousness."

[Jazzmoose]

Things that happened 40 years ago are occuring as we speak; the sooner we realize this, the sooner we'll get some rest -

Well put!

[Fer Urbina]

Allen,

That encounter... did it happen at the crossroads?

I am really looking forward to this. I was enchanted by Minstrel to Mojo and by Devilin' Tune, and am really interested in reading whatever Allen writes about the blues.

I also think that "the blues" is probably a more difficult matter than "jazz". I got to jazz through blues (and in Spain, reading whatever I could get hold of, which wasn't much nor very good) but I realised very early on that blues was a very vague and often abused concept encompassing anything from the 12-bar, three-chord form to whatever played by a black person with a guitar (Mance Lipscomb's repertoire, anyone?). What Allen says as to the sanctity of the blues is very interesting (his paragraphs about this and Mary Lou Williams in Devilin Tune are ivaluable), and I'd add that turning the blues into a metaphor or some kind of esoteric quality of the human spirit doesn't help understanding its history (if there's such thing, a single history of the blues). For that reason, I don't like Albert Murray's approach on his Stompin' The Blues because IMHO it doesn't help understanding the history of this music, quite the contrary (maybe it's just that it wasn't his intention, but it is what I'm looking for).

I should say that I'm heavily against myth-making in history, mainly because it doesn't reflect the real merit of the subjects: Robert Johnson is more valuable to me as a guy from a deprived background who took the time and effort to work on this guitar playing and absorb what had been done before him, rather than someone who went down to the crossroads and became a master musician just like that.

Regarding agendas and revisionism, I think that the further you get in time from the actual facts, what you lose in direct witnesses and hard evidence, you can gain in weakening agendas (I'm thinking about Bessie Smith's death). And in the case where the information is thin on the ground, the author can always say it (or say "hey, I'm speculating on this, because right now there's no other way around it"). I also think a mature writer should have at least some idea as to when their agenda is creeping in their writing.

Another thing is that IMHO, because of the overwhelming white/black divide in American society not enough attention has been paid to differences within the black peoples of the US, to their class divide or even the geographical differences (was it Willie The Lion Smith who said that the blues started in Harlem?). I think it's a huge mistake to take blacks as a whole, uniform group... how much did Son House and W. C. Handy have in common? Did Handy have more in common with a white music publisher in Memphis than with House? I don't know the answer and I don't know whether there's really an answer, but I think it's the kind of question that needs considering.

In any case, whatever music compilation Allen builds for this will be undoubtedly great and it would probably speak louder than expected about the diversity and richness of American music in general. Speaking of blues, bear in mind that Bird's "Relaxin' At Camarillo" and T-Bone Walker's "Call It Stormy Monday" were recorded just a few months apart.

That's the kind of mix I'm looking forward to.

F

[king ubu]

Allen, not sure how relevant any of this stuff would be to your project, but it's probably worth poking around on, if you haven't already:

http://cylinders.library.ucsb.edu/index.php

Whoah! Astonishing site, thanks a lot for posting that link!

[AllenLowe]

thanks - there's an old line that goes - "when the legend becomes fact, print the legend." In blues lore this has been happening for some time -

I am determined to do this damn thing (lotta work, but I will do it s...l...o....w....l...y.......) - big challenge might be to find a publisher so I can get a little cash -

if anybody has any ideas, let me know -

[king ubu]

That's from "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" - at least that's where I know it from, might as well be older. But that film would be a good point of origin if it is!

Edit: a quick google search brings nothing but references to the film. There's also a book on Ford titled "Print the Legend". Could well be the source then. On the other hand who knows when which phrase turned up first...

Edited November 5, 2008 by king ubu

[AllenLowe]

I think that's where I heard it, too -

[papsrus]

Allen,

That encounter... did it happen at the crossroads?

I am really looking forward to this. I was enchanted by Minstrel to Mojo and by Devilin' Tune, and am really interested in reading whatever Allen writes about the blues.

I also think that "the blues" is probably a more difficult matter than "jazz". I got to jazz through blues (and in Spain, reading whatever I could get hold of, which wasn't much nor very good) but I realised very early on that blues was a very vague and often abused concept encompassing anything from the 12-bar, three-chord form to whatever played by a black person with a guitar (Mance Lipscomb's repertoire, anyone?). What Allen says as to the sanctity of the blues is very interesting (his paragraphs about this and Mary Lou Williams in Devilin Tune are ivaluable), and I'd add that turning the blues into a metaphor or some kind of esoteric quality of the human spirit doesn't help understanding its history (if there's such thing, a single history of the blues). For that reason, I don't like Albert Murray's approach on his Stompin' The Blues because IMHO it doesn't help understanding the history of this music, quite the contrary (maybe it's just that it wasn't his intention, but it is what I'm looking for).

I should say that I'm heavily against myth-making in history, mainly because it doesn't reflect the real merit of the subjects: Robert Johnson is more valuable to me as a guy from a deprived background who took the time and effort to work on this guitar playing and absorb what had been done before him, rather than someone who went down to the crossroads and became a master musician just like that.

Regarding agendas and revisionism, I think that the further you get in time from the actual facts, what you lose in direct witnesses and hard evidence, you can gain in weakening agendas (I'm thinking about Bessie Smith's death). And in the case where the information is thin on the ground, the author can always say it (or say "hey, I'm speculating on this, because right now there's no other way around it"). I also think a mature writer should have at least some idea as to when their agenda is creeping in their writing.

Another thing is that IMHO, because of the overwhelming white/black divide in American society not enough attention has been paid to differences within the black peoples of the US, to their class divide or even the geographical differences (was it Willie The Lion Smith who said that the blues started in Harlem?). I think it's a huge mistake to take blacks as a whole, uniform group... how much did Son House and W. C. Handy have in common? Did Handy have more in common with a white music publisher in Memphis than with House? I don't know the answer and I don't know whether there's really an answer, but I think it's the kind of question that needs considering.

In any case, whatever music compilation Allen builds for this will be undoubtedly great and it would probably speak louder than expected about the diversity and richness of American music in general. Speaking of blues, bear in mind that Bird's "Relaxin' At Camarillo" and T-Bone Walker's "Call It Stormy Monday" were recorded just a few months apart.

That's the kind of mix I'm looking forward to.

F

Very well said.