New Project: Looking for Suggestions

[AllenLowe]

after a stange interview with a well-known jazz musician in which our opinions diverged powerfully on minstrelsy and the blues I have decided to do a new multi-CD project on blues performances styles from 1900-1960 (give or take a few years) - will include all styles from rags to jazz to hillbilly to country to gospel to everything else - looking for obscure but interesting single recordings in the blues, any genre, up until 1960; I own a HUGE amount of stuff, but one never knows what one may find where- so please if you have anything or know of anything that I might not come across otherwise, let me know -

[JSngry]

You're saying that you & Wynton disagreed?

Wow, I sure didn't see that one coming!

[7/4]

is there video?

.

[Alexander]

after a stange interview with a well-known jazz musician in which our opinions diverged powerfully on minstrelsy and the blues I have decided to do a new multi-CD project on blues performances styles from 1900-1960 (give or take a few years) - will include all styles from rags to jazz to hillbilly to country to gospel to everything else - looking for obscure but interesting single recordings in the blues, any genre, up until 1960; I own a HUGE amount of stuff, but one never knows what one may find where- so please if you have anything or know of anything that I might not come across otherwise, let me know -

I think this is a great idea and I can't wait to see the end product. "That Devilin' Tune" was such an excellent set, I'd love to see what you would do with the blues (especially exploding the myth - as I'm sure you will - that the blues originated in the Mississippi Delta). I don't have any original recordings, myself. Just reissues. But if I could make a suggestion, I hope that you'll include some Emmett Miller, probably one of the best Blackface performers of all time (his accent - while certainly exaggerated - sounds more like real African-American speech than any other Blackface performer I've heard). His band, the Georgia Crackers, included some excellent jazz musicians...

[Dan Gould]

Since Vee Jay won't release them, I could offer one of Baby Face Willette's singles recorded before he left Chicago for NY.

[AllenLowe]

thanks, Dan, I will probably take you up on that, I appreciate it -

as to a previous post, Wynton who?

let us just say that it is my opinion that the origins of the blues are mixed in between country sources and minstrel sources- and that the post-Reconstruction black minstrel show, and it's transformation into a variety of entertainments that had minstrelsy at their core, were ultimately not only liberating to African American performers but revolutionary for American music. There is a tendency to describe the blues in almost religious terms, and to not grant that it had some broader entertainment values that were related to not only blackface traditions but also styles of singing and playing that are much different than that of the country blues - one does not dismiss American racism by seeing the black minstrel/medicine/traveling show as taking that tradition far from its demeaning sources. I must also credit a book that came out a few years ago, Ragged But Right (by Doug Seroff and Lynn Abbot) with confirming what had been, for me, an anecdotal sense that this was the way to look at the blues and its beginnings.

If I can do it right I think this can be an important look at the full scale of what blues performance is. The other side of this coin is that, as I've been thinking about all this, I have come around full circle in my own ideas about the blues (especially since taking up the guitar). My own feeling is somewhat strangely akin to that of Crouch and Marsalis, in regarding the blues as essential - but not as they define essential - it is essential to MY OWN playing and my own music; it certainly is NOT essential to many other jazz musicians. And there is nothing wrong with that, I think. To each his own - I also now believe (and this is a recent theory) that the blues is essentially a vertical style, and that the reason I do not find most jazz players convincing as they play the blues is that they are horizontal players (sorry Jim, to start this old argument again). Of course, having decided that, than why is Bird such a great blues player? More on that later - but in looking at the verticalness off the blues I find the first and second generation of avant gardist to having been onto something important in their essential rejection of horizontal playing - which of course begs the question of Ornette - more on that later,also - but also back to Larry Kart's piece on Ornette, which I need to go back to but which describes him, if I recall at all correctly, as being a "pre-tonal" player - and more on that later, too -

one last important thing in minstrelsy is that it is in the early form that we first hear of the singer and instrumentalist in a call and response relationship - the obligatto, I believe it is called, of the instrumentalist accompanying the singer. Something that is essential to the blues.

And yes to Emmett Miller. This is a major undertaking; hope I can turn it into a book contract, though I'm not optimistic; that would be helpful in "paying" for my time, but we'll see what happens -

Edited November 2, 2008 by AllenLowe

[clifford_thornton]

This sounds great - can't wait.

Not sure if this is appropriate for the thread, but has anybody heard the Clarence Samuels disc supposedly with Ornette that was waxed for Imperial in 1949?

[AllenLowe]

omigod - do we have confirmation that this even exists?

[AndrewHill]

This sounds great - can't wait.

Not sure if this is appropriate for the thread, but has anybody heard the Clarence Samuels disc supposedly with Ornette that was waxed for Imperial in 1949?

That would be cool to hear!

[Chuck Nessa]

let us just say that it is my opinion that the origins of the blues are mixed in between country sources and minstrel sources- and that the post-Reconstruction black minstrel show, and it's transformation into a variety of entertainments that had minstrelsy at their core, were ultimately not only liberating to African American performers but revolutionary for American music. There is a tendency to describe the blues in almost religious terms, and to not grant that it had some broader entertainment values that were related to not only blackface traditions but also styles of singing and playing that are much different than that of the country blues - one does not dismiss American racism by seeing the black minstrel/medicine/traveling show as taking that tradition far from its demeaning sources. I must also credit a book that came out a few years ago, Ragged But Right (by Doug Seroff and Lynn Abbot) with confirming what had been, for me, an anecdotal sense that this was the way to look at the blues and its beginnings.

You must factor in the "attitudes" of the folks deciding what to record. Do not think the recordings represent the entire picture. White experiences influence all this stuff. It is impossible to imagine what was missed.

[AllenLowe]

well yes - but Seroff and Abbott have given us two massive and amazing books now in which they document incredible amounts of info from the old African American newspapers about the showbiz life of that time - and there are enough oral histories and other things floating around from veterans of that experience that we have a solid picture of who was doing what, even if we do not always have recorded documentation. Though there is a fair amount of recordings a few years after the fact - Clara Smith, Bessie Smith, Ma Rainey (all veternas of those shows) and others, plus incredible reissuings of Paramount and Brunswick and Gennett that reflect what was still a very active minstrel/medicine show circuit. So I think there is still a lot to go on (also reading Tom Fletcher's book on early black showbiz) -

[Alexander]

let us just say that it is my opinion that the origins of the blues are mixed in between country sources and minstrel sources- and that the post-Reconstruction black minstrel show, and it's transformation into a variety of entertainments that had minstrelsy at their core, were ultimately not only liberating to African American performers but revolutionary for American music. There is a tendency to describe the blues in almost religious terms, and to not grant that it had some broader entertainment values that were related to not only blackface traditions but also styles of singing and playing that are much different than that of the country blues - one does not dismiss American racism by seeing the black minstrel/medicine/traveling show as taking that tradition far from its demeaning sources. I must also credit a book that came out a few years ago, Ragged But Right (by Doug Seroff and Lynn Abbot) with confirming what had been, for me, an anecdotal sense that this was the way to look at the blues and its beginnings.

You must factor in the "attitudes" of the folks deciding what to record. Do not think the recordings represent the entire picture. White experiences influence all this stuff. It is impossible to imagine what was missed.

True, dat.

[Dan Gould]

thanks, Dan, I will probably take you up on that, I appreciate it -

Check your email - the paypal one.

[papsrus]

This sounds like a beautiful idea Allen. I wish you good luck and will be very interested to see how it all turns out.

[Chuck Nessa]

well yes - but Seroff and Abbott have given us two massive and amazing books now in which they document incredible amounts of info from the old African American newspapers about the showbiz life of that time - and there are enough oral histories and other things floating around from veterans of that experience that we have a solid picture of who was doing what, even if we do not always have recorded documentation. Though there is a fair amount of recordings a few years after the fact - Clara Smith, Bessie Smith, Ma Rainey (all veternas of those shows) and others, plus incredible reissuings of Paramount and Brunswick and Gennett that reflect what was still a very active minstrel/medicine show circuit. So I think there is still a lot to go on (also reading Tom Fletcher's book on early black showbiz) -

"Early black showbiz" and the female blues/vaudeville acts are different than the country singers and some preachers. The choices the papers made of who to cover were dictated by urban tastes formed to some extent by an artificial marketing campaign. Very little documentation is not "stained" by the commerce of the time.

[AllenLowe]

true, but there's also Howard Odum's research in the field and some work by Dorothy Scarborough, even Lomax, though I have some reservations; also amazing documentation by Lafcadio Hearn on black Cincinnati in the 19th century. Also, I do think it's even possible, per some recent research by Peter Muir, that the showbiz blues preceded the country blues, that the more "pop" form emerged in a dominant way before even the blues that emerged in the country - and that the country players may have picked it up from the "commercial" players and not necessarily vice versa. Or maybe not. Also possible is that it was happening in obscure country locations and picked up by commercial composers. Richard Zimmerman has found some older sheet music with blues forms, as has Muir. In addition, there is testimony by Mance Lipscomb (born 1895) about when HE first heard the blues, so, anecdotally, we have some sense from these multiple sources. We also have, on record (via Paul Oliver) a very early witnessing of "the blues" in a minstrel/medicine show. Add to this older songs like Frankie and Johnny that are not really blues, but have the chord progression...

also, re-preachers, there is an AMAZING amount of early (1920s) gospel that Document has issued, fantastic stuff, archaic and complicated, that I think is quite revealing of some of the things Chuck is talking about.

All in all, it's an unclear picture, and truly the most important thing I feel I can do is present the known elements and make it clear that this is what I am doing, and nothing more (or less). As I've learned from Larry Gushee, if we don't KNOW something to be true, than we cannot/should not say it is true. My problem with some famous jazz musicians is that they don't bother to distinguish the known from the assumed.

Aside from that I think there is a fantastic amount of music that can be juxtaposed in a way never done before.

Dan - that old email doesn't work - you need to use alowe5@maine.rr.com, sorry -

Edited November 3, 2008 by AllenLowe

[John L]

II'd love to see what you would do with the blues (especially exploding the myth - as I'm sure you will - that the blues originated in the Mississippi Delta).

There may not exist a completely convincing case that the blues originated in Mississippi, but I have not seen a convincing case to the contrary either. How are you so sure that this is a myth?

The project sounds exciting. I recall that we had a discussion a while back on related issues. When we talk about the origins of the blues, it is important to define exactly what is meant by "blues." Some of the written transcriptions and descriptions that we have of 19th century black work songs from Mississippi seem to me to resemble very much the blues, even though the 12 bar form is absent.

Edited November 3, 2008 by John L

[JSngry]

To each his own - I also now believe (and this is a recent theory) that the blues is essentially a vertical style, and that the reason I do not find most jazz players convincing as they play the blues is that they are horizontal players (sorry Jim, to start this old argument again). Of course, having decided that, than why is Bird such a great blues player? More on that later - but in looking at the verticalness off the blues I find the first and second generation of avant gardist to having been onto something important in their essential rejection of horizontal playing...

Dude, what the fuck are you talking about? Seriously. Some new definitions of vertical & horizontal?

I don't know if I agree with you or not, because I don't understand what it is I may or may not be agreeing with.

[clifford_thornton]

omigod - do we have confirmation that this even exists?

I had read in an early discography of Ornette that recordings were done in 1949 for Imperial with Samuels, but no, I can't confirm their existence beyond what my eyes told me.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

"Early black showbiz" and the female blues/vaudeville acts are different than the country singers and some preachers. The choices the papers made of who to cover were dictated by urban tastes formed to some extent by an artificial marketing campaign. Very little documentation is not "stained" by the commerce of the time.

But that's inevitably true of everything. What historians, in any field, do is find what's documented (in some way) and order and interpret it as best they may and say that's what "really" happened. The larger the frame they look at, the more that's true - for example economic history. And conversely, the smaller the frame, the less it's true and perhaps this is an example of that. But what Allen is proposing to analyse is in fact a commercial venture (or thousands of commercial ventures) so being stained by commerce may not be such a big problem.

Come in Bev.

MG

[Christiern]

Allen, are "veternas" female veterans?

Seriously, very interesting idea, but an enormous task (especially when you already have a fair-sized project going). Good to see that you feel up to it.

[AllenLowe]

actually, I'm not sure if I am up to it, but I feel it just has to be done, given all the arguments that go on. On the other hand, given, maybe, three years, the mastering can be done. I think I have someone to issue it, but still working on confirmation (also, length of the project!) Might also be time to find a literary agent, though I've had next to zero luck with this in the past - biggest struggle will probably be the writing -

so....I spent the weekend going through LPs and CDs and found a lot of what I need -

sorry, Jim, I was referring to the old Max Roach argument, thought you remembered - somewhere I actually copied my position on vertical versus horizontal into a word doc, will try to locate -

and, wonder of wonders, as I type this I am listening to a GREAT Dorothy Donegan blues performance from 1942, Every Day Blues - beautifully and TASTEFULLY done (I always remember Barry Harris saying to me about her, "weird broad...she has chops like Tatum but NO taste.")

[Niko]

sorry, Jim, I was referring to the old Max Roach argument, thought you remembered - somewhere I actually copied my position on vertical versus horizontal into a word doc, will try to locate -

could have been this thread?

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=35545

[Tom Storer]

I remember that thread, where you and Jim heatedly disputed Max Roach and Tony Williams' later work. I remember being confused at the time by your quite personal definition of horizontality vs. verticality. If this quote from that thread is anything to go by:

My feeling is that drum playing for many became more "vertical" after Elvin, as the time-keeping emphasis moved away from the high hat and ride cymbal and got spread around the drum set - the drum sound became almost more suspended, and vertical in the sense that the time keeping centered more around ringing and resonant sounds that sustained themselves above and around the beat instead of maintaining a metronomic relationship to the beat - I realize this is a little vague, but it's somewhat akin to the difference between Lester Young (vertical player) and Coleman Hawkins (horizontal) - the vertical player is more concerned with longer-held sounds or notes that suspend themselves above and around the points of rhythmic demarcation; the horizontal player is basically walking in a relatively straight and continuous line.

--then it's mostly a description of rhythmic phrasing, no? Which is what confuses, since "vertical" is often used to refer to harmony, versus "horizontal" to refer to line and melody. With regard to the blues, you said that you think jazz players play horizontally whereas the blues is vertical, which, going by your definition above, would mean jazz players are more metronomic. Are you thinking of jazz players stringing together long lines of eighth-notes, whereas blues players have more idiosyncratic phrasing?

Edited November 3, 2008 by Tom Storer

[AllenLowe]

yes, basically, has to do with the jazz players who generally (but not always) have the need for linear continuity in a melodic sense - however, my idea of the blues as vertical works great as a theory but there are too many exceptions to the rule - Bird. Bud. On the other hand Horace Silver has always struck me as a bebopper who had learned the lessons of the blues not in the sense simply of tonality (hence O.P., whose blues playing drives me crazy) but in terms of time and touch - and of course that percussiveness is related to Bud's as well. There is also in Silver's playing a sense of "stopping" in time to make certain kinds of melodic/rhythmic emphasis - which relates again to the idea of the vertical -

I may stop worrying about the exceptions and have to recognize that there's always a different way to go. On the other hand, I do think that lack of attention to the vertical-ness of the blues is what makes so many jazz players unconvincing as blues players. And when they do try to recognize this they tend to resort to maddeningly-trite cliches (so-called 'blue' notes beaten nearly to death, repetition of certain phrases, etc etc) -

Still figuring all of this out, but these are the things going through my head -

Edited November 3, 2008 by AllenLowe