Red Callender Swingin' Suite

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

this wcj octet predates dave pell or even the light house im pretty sure- (anyone know the exact year?)

its a really good lp!

[Chas]

The Callender ( done at the end of '55) does not pre-date the Rumsey , Pell or Niehaus Octets . I agree however , that it's not a bad record .

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

oh poo, ok, well its the 1st wcj lp octet by black people.....valid?

[Big Beat Steve]

Actually it's NOT the first WCJ octet LP by black people because it's by a NONET, at least on some tracks (it's Red Callender + 8! :D)

And it's not the "first WCJ LP" by black people either because Red Callender's "Speaks Low" LP on Crown 5012 predated this one.

And it depends on what you call WCJ anyway. Black West Coast "Central Avenue" jazzmen recorded long before that. Red Callender himself recorded with an octet for Victor in 1952 (though on 78s).

AND that Swingin Suite is not necessarily from the end of 1955 either. Both Jepsen and Bruyninckx list Crown 5025 (Swingin Suite) as being recorded in Oct./Nov. 1956, and 5012 (Speaks Low) in 1954. Or has anybody got conclusive proof that these dates are wrong?

But even if the 1955 date indicated by Chas were correct then Frank Morgan's debut LP (GNP 12, rec. on Jan. 29 and March 31, 1955) would still predate it, and with its septet lineup it's not far from being an octet either.

Edited November 2, 2008 by Big Beat Steve

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

Red Callender himself recorded with an octet for Victor in 1952 (though on 78s).

ok ok ok ok ok Mr Big Beat THIS is something chewys gotta get hip to, STAT! are you aware of the personel or other pertinent info for these Victor sides! I'm very curious as to whats up with these! Reissues?

[Big Beat Steve]

Will check my Bruyninckx tonight.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

thajnk u

[BillF]

thajnk u

Don't you mean thanckx?

[michel1969]

Actually it's NOT the first WCJ octet LP by black people because it's by a NONET, at least on some tracks (it's Red Callender + 8! :D)

And it's not the "first WCJ LP" by black people either because Red Callender's "Speaks Low" LP on Crown 5012 predated this one.

And it depends on what you call WCJ anyway. Black West Coast "Central Avenue" jazzmen recorded long before that. Red Callender himself recorded with an octet for Victor in 1952 (though on 78s).

AND that Swingin Suite is not necessarily from the end of 1955 either. Both Jepsen and Bruyninckx list Crown 5025 (Swingin Suite) as being recorded in Oct./Nov. 1956, and 5012 (Speaks Low) in 1954. Or has anybody got conclusive proof that these dates are wrong?

But even if the 1955 date indicated by Chas were correct then Frank Morgan's debut LP (GNP 12, rec. on Jan. 29 and March 31, 1955) would still predate it, and with its septet lineup it's not far from being an octet either.

I may be wrong, but...

Modern LMP-1201 - Swingin' Suite Red Callender and His Modern Octet [recorded 1956] was reissued as Crown CLP-5025 (Different covers, mixed croxn/ moder records etc...)

Modern LMP-1212 - Red Callender Speaks Low (recorded 1956) was reissued as Crown 5012.

Edited November 5, 2008 by Michel

[Big Beat Steve]

You are right about the Crown reissues of the Moderns, of course.

As for the recording dates: Like I said - the dates I gave are those listed by Jepsen and Bruyninckx. But if there is CONCLUSIVE proof that these are wrong (including the one for CLP-5012) then I'm fine with that.

Maybe CROWN label collector nuts (they DO exist) will know for sure but OTOH they usually concentrate on the R&B releases on Crown/Modern and tend to bypass the jazz stuff.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

mr big beat: you say crown records nuts DO exist----

you mean besides me? have you encoutered others of the breed as well?

i swear to god im not in the wrong on this one, loving crown so much. i first started to notice them at goodwills and other thrift stores. so many of them. then i figured out all about the connection to legitimate LA west coast jazz/blues/RandB scene, and that just plan sealed the deal for me

hey did u ever have a chance 2 report back on those RCA victor sides? im much interested in tracking those down.

I kicked myself for weeks last summer i passed up this TEEN QUEENS crown lp for .99 cents, i heard its a real rare one. but whatever its not as good as the Isley Bros one i bet

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

oh, mine is that painting cover, but its def. on MODERN-- the disc has this yellow ink printed on it, taht says NEW $1.98......weird....

[Big Beat Steve]

hey did u ever have a chance 2 report back on those RCA victor sides? im much interested in tracking those down.

Sorry, was kind of busy those last evenings, but will write down what's in the discographies ASAP.

(BTW, anybody else around here and reading this got a Bruyninckx or Lord discography handy to give Chewy the lowdown on this?)

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

ithink i know about it: lord and Bruebhnieuex are two competeting discography books (on cd-rom now) and they contain every record immaginable-- how they complied them, i have no idea...is it just thrown together from a different source for each record label, or what is truly up with how they came about producing these books/disks? i also remember hearing that its like 900 dollars for every volume like A-C, D-F, Q-V, etc.....

[Big Beat Steve]

Charles Delaunay compiled his New Hot Discography in the late 30s, reedited it in the 40s,

then (in the 50s) various Brits and Americans tried an update but only ever got through the first third of the alphabet,

in the meantime Jörgen Grunnet JEPSEN did a labour of love with his post-1942 discography in the 60s and eventuall had A to Z completed,

at the same time Brian Rust did a comprehensive discography of jazz recordings up to 1942,

and a lot of work and time went into all these as it's a job that is virtually never finished,

and then (70s/80s) Walter BRUYNINCKX combined everything first into books, then onto CD, adding a lot of his own work, (and then there was Erik Raben - I think Chris A will be able to tell more about that)

and then LORD (Tom) came along, and as for what he did and how this is seen by the discphile fraternity, do a search on this forum and read for yourself ... ;)

But there are enough of these discographies around for somebody to look up the info (sorry, hope I'll remember to have a closer look tonight at home).

[Shrdlu]

Meanwhile, Red was a fantastic bass player. I first heard him with Bird on a couple of Dial sessions.

[blind-blake]

How is Swingin' Suite?