2008-2009 Hot Stove Thread

[Dan Gould]

Actually, it just sounds like a very strong man. There are many more compelling reasons why he should finally be elected.

Quincy, thanks for that Joe Pos link, that's the column I was thinking about that showed how close Steib and Morris really were.

[tkeith]

Two more travesties: Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose. The Hall isn't about the writers, it isn't about the players, hell, it's not even about the game; it's about the fans. Find me one true baseball fan that doesn't get a stiffy when s/he sees that black-and-white of Pete diving for third base. OH! That's it, I've gotta go rub one out.

Pete Rose broke the one rule that should never be broken- he bet on the game. Since the 1919 White Sox that's been the one sacrosanct rule and he broke it.

No argument. Your comment is about the game. Are you denying Rose was one of the greatest to ever play the game? Put a disgraced players wing in, if you must, but for the history of the game, he's got to be there.

One thing that's always bugged me, Pete was accused of betting on his team to win. The biggest argument I've heard about why that's so bad is that if he didn't bet, that sends a message to the bookies. Who gives a shit about the bookies?

[tkeith]

And whither Bob Boone??? He was thought of as a great defensive catcher,(There are some not hit great catching catchers in the Hall) played into his 40's had the all time record for games caught...never hear any HOF talk for him, do you???

Good point. I have some theories about the problems with the writers. As I understand it, a writer must be a beat writer for 10 consecutive years to have a vote. Realistically, that means some of the current voters may have never seen Ted Simmons play as a Cardinal (not everybody had access to out of area broadcasts in the 70s and 80s). Given that, how may of these voters are influenced by what a terrible GM Simmons was?

[tkeith]

I can't claim to be consistent because saying I don't think Morris belongs implies that I want a "small" Hall but then again I want Jim Rice in because I idolized him growing up.

Jim Rice should be in the Hall .....i found this in response to a fans question :

[Question from fan:] I remember watching you when I was in high school and how they always talked about the strength of your forearms and your bat speed. I also remember an "urban legend" that you could break a bat at the handle just by swinging and flicking your wrists. Any truth to that?

Tom F.

Tyngsboro, MA

[Rice answers:] I did it twice in games. On two separate occasions I broke bats without ever making contact with the pitch and both were check swings. I think one was in Oakland and a curveball started out high and I committed to swing, but when it broke downward on me and I tried to stop my swing I was left just holding the bat handle in my hands.

Now, doesn't that sound like a Hall of Famer?

Bob Lobel had a great round-table discussion a few years back with Yaz, Fisk, Evans and Rice (if I remember correctly). It was one of the first times I'd ever seen that side of Rice. He was always very surly as a player (though, not so much towards fans). Then a couple of years ago, I saw another interview where he was asked about his attitude towards the press. I had heard Steve Buckley (who's an ass) talking about Rice saying, "When he was 0-4 with 2 strikeouts and 2 double plays, those were the days he'd talk to you, and he was fine. It was the days when he went 3-4 with 2 homeruns that he was so difficult." Rice addressed that very phenomenon in the interview, saying, "I never wanted the focus to be on me, I wanted it on the team. That's why, hey, if we lost because of something I did, I'll take the responsibility. If we won, that's a team victory." *THAT* sounds like a Hall of Famer. If Rice had had Lasic at his disposal, he might well be in The Hall.

[Dan Gould]

Pete Rose wasn't whitewashed out of baseball history. He is in fact all over the Hall of Fame museum, where his accomplishments are acknowledged in different exhibits. What he lacks is a plaque with the other members, which is precisely as it should be.

It astounds me that someone can minimize the significance of a manager betting on games. And it is absolutely untrue that he only bet on his team, and only bet to win. That lie, propagated by Rose and his apologists, has been debunked so many times its amazing that it still lives.

[Quincy]

As I understand it, a writer must be a beat writer for 10 consecutive years to have a vote. Realistically, that means some of the current voters may have never seen Ted Simmons play as a Cardinal (not everybody had access to out of area broadcasts in the 70s and 80s).

This is slowly changing. Just last week Rob Neyer and 3 guys associated (1 formerly) with Baseball Prospectus were given the vote. One didn't sound all that thrilled by the honor in his blog (wasn't Neyer.)

Allowing just beat writers is a problem as even with interleague play they see so little of the other league. Unless they're extreme baseball nuts with a lot of time on their hands I'm doubtful that they much of anything other than the game of the team they cover. Of course the national TV people mostly just see the Red Sox or Yankees and whoever they're playing...

[tkeith]

Of course the national TV people mostly just see the Red Sox or Yankees and whoever they're playing...

As it should be.

[BERIGAN]

And whither Bob Boone??? He was thought of as a great defensive catcher,(There are some not hit great catching catchers in the Hall) played into his 40's had the all time record for games caught...never hear any HOF talk for him, do you???

Good point. I have some theories about the problems with the writers. As I understand it, a writer must be a beat writer for 10 consecutive years to have a vote. Realistically, that means some of the current voters may have never seen Ted Simmons play as a Cardinal (not everybody had access to out of area broadcasts in the 70s and 80s). Given that, how may of these voters are influenced by what a terrible GM Simmons was?

It's true, how few teams anyone got to seen via TV back in the day??? I think the Cards only broadcast locally 40 games a year, so I only saw someone like Bench if a Reds game was televised, or during the game of the week. Jim Rice even less often, Though they must have shown the Red Sox a fair bit during GOTW(how times have changed ) since I can very easily picture his swing...and of course during the playoffs you got to see a few teams a bit more.

Don't think after 1, 2 years of Simmons being a GM has much to do with it, he had a heart attack, and had to resign because of that in 1993.

[BERIGAN]

This is interesting!!!! Family says doctors misdiagnosed Rocco Baldelli's condition

[zen archer]

This is interesting!!!! Family says doctors misdiagnosed Rocco Baldelli's condition

I don't know why the Sox are waiting to contact him ?

[BERIGAN]

This is interesting!!!! Family says doctors misdiagnosed Rocco Baldelli's condition

I don't know why the Sox are waiting to contact him ?

Well, if this is true(And that would be pretty smarmy to make this up) he's going to want to start, isn't he???

[tkeith]

It's true, how few teams anyone got to seen via TV back in the day??? I think the Cards only broadcast locally 40 games a year, so I only saw someone like Bench if a Reds game was televised, or during the game of the week. Jim Rice even less often, Though they must have shown the Red Sox a fair bit during GOTW(how times have changed ) since I can very easily picture his swing...and of course during the playoffs you got to see a few teams a bit more.

Don't think after 1, 2 years of Simmons being a GM has much to do with it, he had a heart attack, and had to resign because of that in 1993.

Funny, I remember the Game of the Week being almost exclusively out-of-market games. Wonder if they had the brains to do that on purpose. Wish they'd go back to that. Stupid cable packages prevent it, though.

[tkeith]

This is interesting!!!! Family says doctors misdiagnosed Rocco Baldelli's condition

I don't know why the Sox are waiting to contact him ?

Yeah, J.D. Spew is due for a breakdown this year; bring him on!!!!

[BERIGAN]

Are you a free agent, or just a player wanting out of town??? Why not get those suckers with the Braves to show interest in you, so you or your team can get more out of the team you really want to play for. Peavy seemed like a done deal then you heard rumblings that Peavy was worried if Yunel Escobar was in the package, who'd be at short??? As the beat writer said, he sure didn't seem to want to put a team on his back, neither did Burnett. Speaking of that fuck, AJ Burnett was quoted via Chipper Jones saying the only NL team he'd play for was the Braves, but how he really liked being in the AL not having to swing a bat, or run the bases, the poor dear, you can get winded doing that! He was almost a brave.

Now, you may have heard we had "signed" Rafael Furcal, all that was pending was a physical...wait, not so fast! The Dodgers might just pony up the 4th vesting year after all!

FUCK!!! For the first time in 5-6 years, the Braves actually had lots of money(Not Yankees or Red Sox money, but still 40 Mil + used to be decent moola) this off season, and if San Diego had not kept trying to change the names of prospects(most of the fault for the trade falling thru was really the Pads GM Towers) he was cheap, and we could have (in theory) gotten Burnett or Lowe as well since he had a fairly cheap contract and a left fielder. Instead, we had to trade for Javy Vasquez, who no one seems to think much of, and gave up the guy Kenny Williams drooled over, Tyler Flowers who hit something like 13 homers in the Arizona fall league, and is a catcher to boot.

It's just frustrating that players and agents do this. I know, it happens a fair bit during the off season, but to have it happen so many times to have the rug pulled out, it pisses one off. May go into the season with money in the coffers and no one to spend it on. No number one, or #2 starter(Jair Jurrjens was a rookie last year, can't make him a #1 , can you?) We need a right handed bat, and they seem to be afraid of Pat Burrell, and who can blame them??? He is very streaky. Everyone else seems to be a left handed bat...

Edited December 17, 2008 by BERIGAN

[BERIGAN]

Yep, there should be a special place in hell for agents like these....

By Mark Bowman / MLB.com

ATLANTA — Once again, the Braves are forced to feel like they’ve been left at the altar. But the frustration that surrounded their unsuccessful attempts to land Jake Peavy and A.J. Burnett pales in comparison to the anger created after they felt they’d reached an agreement with Rafael Furcal.

“Those two cases [of Peavy and Burnett] were very understandable,” Braves general manager Frank Wren said. “This one was not.”

With Peavy, the Braves found a Padres organization that seemed indecisive and reluctant in its attempts to trade the ace. With Burnett, they faced the reality that New York was much closer than Atlanta to the coveted pitcher’s Baltimore-area home.

With Furcal, Wren found an agent who seemingly didn’t believe in the binding element of a verbal agreement.

Early Wednesday evening, a baseball official told MLB.com that Furcal had reached agreement with the Dodgers on a three-year contract that includes a vesting option for the 2012 season.

In other words, the Dodgers essentially find themselves exactly where the Braves were on Tuesday morning, when Atlanta felt Furcal’s agent, Paul Kinzer, had verbally agreed to accept Wren’s offer, which also included three guaranteed years and a vesting option for 2012.

At Kinzer’s request, Wren faxed a signed term sheet that outlined the offer. This was the action that gave the Braves every reason to believe a verbal agreement was, indeed, in place.

A Major League general manager who wasn’t involved in these negotiations confirmed on Tuesday that term sheets aren’t sent to the agent until a verbal agreement has been made.

But once the Braves sent this signed term sheet, Kinzer began altering his stance. It’s believed that he began feeling some heat from his partner, Arn Tellem, who was upset that the Dodgers hadn’t been given the opportunity to counter the Braves’ offer.

“In this business, you have to have confidence in the people you’re dealing with,” Wren said. “The worst thing that can happen to you is to lose the confidence of the people that you have to deal with.”

Wren’s words primarily were directed toward Kinzer, who drew the ire of the Braves in December 2005, when he didn’t provide them the chance to counter the three-year, $39 million offer that Furcal ultimately accepted from the Dodgers.

This time around, in a strange turn of events, Kinzer and Tellem allowed the Dodgers the opportunity to counter the offer the Braves felt already had been agreed upon.

After attending a news conference that officially introduced Francisco Rodriguez as a Mets player on Wednesday morning, Kinzer spoke to reporters about how things had changed so dramatically over the course of the previous 24 hours.

Wren read those comments with great interest and was incensed when he came across Kinzer saying, “I’m embarrassed and I’m sure Frank is embarrassed.”

“We’re not embarrassed,” Wren said. “We’re mad a deal wasn’t honored. I can understand why he’s embarrassed.”

Wren’s take was that you can only feel embarrassed if you do something wrong. From his perspective, he felt he handled everything professionally from the time he and Kinzer began attempting to hammer out a deal on Monday night.

Between 8 p.m.-10 p.m. ET on Monday, Wren and Kinzer had numerous phone conversations that centered on the terms of the deal. Around 9:30 p.m., Kinzer was pleased enough to call the A’s to tell them they were out of the picture.

Kinzer and Wren spoke once more around midnight, with the agent indicating that he still hadn’t had the chance to speak with Furcal. But at the same time, he said, “Everything looked good.”

“I went to bed feeling we were in good shape,” said Wren, who awoke on Tuesday morning to find a voice-mail message from Kinzer, who had since talked to Furcal.

Within this message, Wren remembers Kinzer saying, “I talked to Raffy. We’re good with everything. Go ahead and send over a term sheet.”

With that, Wren felt the negotiations were complete and began planning for Furcal to undergo a physical in Atlanta on Wednesday. As for Braves fans, they began anticipating the return of the exciting shortstop who spent his first six Major League seasons (2000-05) with Atlanta.

But early Tuesday afternoon, Kinzer once again started to answer his phone to tell reporters that nothing had been signed or agreed upon. His message came at least three hours after various media outlets had reported an agreement was in place.

Kinzer didn’t return multiple calls placed by MLB.com on Wednesday. He did talk to Wren during the afternoon hours, and instead of negotiating, he found himself attempting to explain what happened.

There’s a chance Furcal chose to stick with the Dodgers because he’s enjoyed his time in Los Angeles and wanted to play for manager Joe Torre again. There’s also a chance he wasn’t thrilled with the possibility of having to move to second base if he signed with the Braves.

But for now, the Braves really don’t know why the tide shifted so dramatically after it appeared they’d acquired one of the game’s top leadoff hitters. Nor can they really do anything about it.

“There’s no recourse,” Wren said. “You learn who you can do business with and who you can’t.”

http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/article...sp&c_id=atl

[BERIGAN]

I know this thrills the hell out of the Red Sox fans, but I'll post this anyway....

Livid Schuerholz: Furcal dealings ‘despicable’ Braves’ president says team will never do business with player agency again

Edited December 19, 2008 by BERIGAN

[zen archer]

Channel 5 in Boston are reporting that the Red Sox brass including owner John Henry have flown to Texas to meet with Boras

and are ready to sign Teixeira to a 8 year 184 million deal !!!!!!

[Chalupa]

Channel 5 in Boston are reporting that the Red Sox brass including owner John Henry have flown to Texas to meet with Boras

and are ready to sign Teixeira to a 8 year 184 million deal !!!!!!

ESPN.com news services

Updated: December 19, 2008, 12:09 AM ET

Thursday afternoon it looked as if the Boston Red Sox had taken strides toward completing a deal for first baseman Mark Teixeira, major league sources told ESPN.com.

But by Thursday night, Red Sox owner John Henry had sent an email to The Associated Press saying they had been outbid for Teixeira and "are not going to be a factor" in acquiring him.

"We met with Mr. Teixeira and were very much impressed with him," Henry told the Associated Press. "After hearing about his other offers, however, it seems clear that we are not going to be a factor."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3780408

[Dan Gould]

Having seen the reports Zen mentioned, I put on Sportscenter right before going to bed, hoping to catch an update of what seemed like good news, only to see that report of John Henry's email.

What a staggering turn of events. At least the positive news, at this point (and only at this point because I don't trust Cashman) is that there are no indications that the Yankees are swooping in with a 250 million dollar deal. If Teixeira wants to prove he is the perfect soulless money grubbing Boras client, fine. If that means he spends ten years in D.C. or Baltimore, planning his October vacation in July every year, enjoy counting the millions, Mark.

As happy as I would have been to land him, I actually admire Theo and Henry for taking a position and sticking with it. There are other options going forward, including Matt Holiday and especially young Lars Anderson, who could be knocking on the door as early as this September.

[zen archer]

Having seen the reports Zen mentioned, I put on Sportscenter right before going to bed, hoping to catch an update of what seemed like good news, only to see that report of John Henry's email.

What a staggering turn of events. At least the positive news, at this point (and only at this point because I don't trust Cashman) is that there are no indications that the Yankees are swooping in with a 250 million dollar deal. If Teixeira wants to prove he is the perfect soulless money grubbing Boras client, fine. If that means he spends ten years in D.C. or Baltimore, planning his October vacation in July every year, enjoy counting the millions, Mark.

As happy as I would have been to land him, I actually admire Theo and Henry for taking a position and sticking with it. There are other options going forward, including Matt Holiday and especially young Lars Anderson, who could be knocking on the door as early as this September.

WOW , what a turn of events, last night on the sports network here n Boston they were actually giving props

to Teixeira for taking less money and going with Boston. BUT Washington and Baltimore are not even negotiating right now

with him ???..right?

I don't think he is going to get 250 mil even from the yanks ?

[BERIGAN]

What's so "funny" is most people don't know a dirty little secret about Tex....he doesn't hit much the first month or two of the season. Numbers don't always show it, but 4 homers in April, 3 homers in May. Batted .290 in April, .268 in May. So what you say??? Well, Chipper hit .422 in April(.471 OBP) .417 in May, (.537 OBP) Gee, .537 OBP in May??? Who was batting behind him??? Oh yeah, Tex. Granted, Chipper was crazy hot, but still, folks gladly walked Chipper to get to him, and more often than not, it worked. He's talked about how he just gets off to a slow start, thats him. Well, you can get away with that in the ATL(You have to be Andruw Jones or Jeff Francoeur bad before you get booed here) but you still read a lot of folks who knew he just wasn't much of a threat for the first 50-60 games, making an out when you really needed a hit from him.

He does get better, but can you imagine if the Yankees got him and he's hitting .255 in May, after getting 200 Mil??? Holy crap! Everyone in Yankee stadium will be hoarse from booing Tex and A-Rod back to back.

It really is sad to see players just go for that absolute top dollar. I mean, signing with the Red Sox , ANgels or Yankees, you have a chance of winning, sign with the Nationals or Baltimore, it will be 2-3 years easily before getting into the playoffs. Just so you can say you have the 2nd or 3rd best contract in baseball???? -_-

[Dan Gould]

I hate to admit that I was taking John Henry's statement at face value when the consensus seems to be that this is all part of the dance, and that most still think that he'll end up in Boston. How could I forget Boras' use of the infamous "Mystery Team" gambit?

As for Teix' performance, I think I'll be able to deal. The problem I have is with people who insist he isn't clutch, he always fails when the game is on the line. Anyone who puts up the numbers he does helps his team win. Period. And anyway, if you look at his Clutch Stats splits, his highest OBP and Slugging come with two outs and RISP. He slugs .555 in Late and Close situations. Yeah, his highest BA comes with a marging of 4 or more runs but the bottom line is that, as is the case for virtually every player, his "clutch" numbers pretty much follow his overall numbers.

The problem is that when you are the big guy in a lineup, people think you should come through every time, and don't look at his performance rationally.

And Conrad, you're absolutely right that he isn't great in the first half (.277/.366/.511) vs the second half (.303/.390/.574) but I'd rather have a guy who gets hot during the pennant chase than a guy who consistently cools (like, say, Mikey Lowell, and until last year, Youkilis too).

BTW, clutch stats for Teixeira are here.

[Matthew]

Major bummer: Doc Ellis died yesterday.

Dock Ellis, the former major league pitcher best remembered for his flamboyance and social activism as a member of the great Pittsburgh Pirates teams of the 1970s, died Friday of a liver ailment in California, his former agent, Tom Reich, confirmed. Ellis was 63.

[+] EnlargeAP Photo

Dock Ellis, seen here in 1974, won 138 games over 12 major league seasons.

Ellis spent 12 years in the majors with Pittsburgh, the New York Yankees, Oakland, Texas and the New York Mets. He retired in 1979 with a record of 138-119, but was best known for several colorful incidents on and off the field.His wife, Hjordis, told The Assocaited Press he died at the USC Medical Center in Los Angeles.

"It's a tremendous loss to the family," she said. "He's been struggling for about a year with the end stages of liver disease."

In his autobiography, "Dock Ellis in the Country of Baseball,'' Ellis revealed that he threw a no-hitter against the San Diego Padres in June 1970 while under the influence of LSD.

In May 1974 -- in an effort to inspire a lifeless Pittsburgh team -- Ellis drilled Pete Rose, Joe Morgan and Dan Driessen in the top of the first inning. After walking Tony Perez, Ellis threw a pitch near Johnny Bench's head and was lifted from the game by manager Danny Murtaugh.

Ellis also gave up Reggie Jackson's memorable home run off the Tiger Stadium light tower in the 1971 All-Star Game in Detroit.

Off the field, Ellis spoke freely about racial issues, once telling reporters that he wouldn't start against Oakland's Vida Blue in the All-Star Game because Major League Baseball would never start "two soul brothers'' against each other.

[+] EnlargeFocus on Sport/Getty Images

Ellis went 19-9 in 1971 for the Pirates, who beat the Orioles in the World Series.

"Dock Ellis was my first client in baseball, and he gave me as much joy as anybody outside of my family," Reich said. "He was so unique. He was viewed by some people as an outlaw, but he was far from that. He was so ahead of his time. He was so intuitive and smart and talented and independent. And he wasn't about to roll over for the incredible prejudices that existed at the time. "He was a very special person and he had an absolute army of fans and friends. He was at the cutting edge of so many issues, and he never backed down. I was proud to be his friend and stand with him."

Ellis suffered from cirrhosis of the liver and was placed on a list to receive a liver transplant in May. The Los Angeles Times wrote that Ellis had no health insurance, but received help paying his medical bills from friends in baseball.

Bill Scaringe, an agent who represented Ellis after he retired, said Ellis worked for years in the California department of corrections helping inmates transition from prison back to the community. He also ran a drug counseling center in Los Angeles.

"It's very disheartening," Scaringe said. "Dock was such a likeable person -- very gregarious, very outgoing. I would set up personal appearances for him, and after like 30 seconds, people were like relatives or neighbors. Dock was very easy to talk to. He was just a pleasure to be around."

Jerry Crasnick is a senior baseball writer for ESPN.com. The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[Matthew]

The Angels are dropping out of the Mark Teixeira race. Looks like Boston/New York Yankees/Washington/Baltimore will be fighting it out. Maybe Teixeira wants to become the Rafael Palmeiro of the 21st. century, without the steroids, of course and sign with either Washington or Baltimore.

Edited December 22, 2008 by Matthew

[T.D.]

The Angels are dropping out of the Mark Teixeira race.... Maybe Teixeira wants to become the Rafael Palmeiro of the 21st. century, without the steroids, of course and sign with either Washington or Baltimore.

He's a Scott Boras client, no? I thought that basically means signing for the most money. (In the financial world, that'd mean highest net present value of the contract under suitable assumptions; I'm not certain the sports world is always that sophisticated...[Added] OK, Boras probably is.)

Edited December 22, 2008 by T.D.