A somewhat troubling incident: indicitave of larger racial issues?

[fasstrack]

I drive a local car service in the Bronx as a day gig. I picked up a woman and her son close to two hours ago and what ensued is still sticking in my craw. Want to sort it out and started a productive discussion if warranted.

Said passenger was fine at first, playing learning games with the boy. I was tempted to join in. But dark clouds arrived after I made a turn she didn't like (my way was faster to the school). She told me how to go and her tone immediately turned edgy, saying things like "you go the way I tell you. Do you know what customer service is?, etc. Foolishly I--initially politely, then more assertively as she got ruder---engaged her (but went her way anyway). After a few such words were exchanged she first commented that if I'd just shut up and drive there would be no problem---again edgy and pissy. Then it descended a bit and annoyed me as she, still in evidently what she considered teaching mode, started lecturing her son about 'see what happens when people are poorly brought up and rude, etc'. I don't remember the comment that got on my last nerve but she must've hit one out of the park because I pulled over and politely asked her to leave the car---no charge as getting rid of her was payment enough.

Here's where the magic words came: She had been talking to her son the whole time, about what a bad person I was, etc. Now she threw in the piece de resistance: "And you need to learn that he's doing it (all of the above accusations plus tossing her) because mommy's black."

I shudda seen that one coming. My comment as she left (for myself I guess since it would have been wasted on her) was 'I hope you work out these issues'....

So what is this really about? I have been known to overreact and read more in to situations, being thoughtful, than they deserve. I don't feel bad for me, (being an artist if this continues to stew I can write a tune or something) but for her and her hurt, but I especially feel for the kid, who probably gets a steady diet of this from, IMO, damaged goods mommy. I guess if he's smart enough he'll figure it out eventually, but it's a drag that he has to overcome a stacked deck.

There's the slightest of possibities that she got this a drop right, because my own prejudices (not against blacks but two other groups I've had lousy experiences with through the years and am trying to deal with that beast like we all should be) have been on my mind. Slightly crazy people can pick up on that. I've also been extra sensitive to pissed-off minorities (especially in shitty jobs) lately because I'm always dealing with the public and sometimes people set people off Hell, if I were they and dealing with constant disrespect, I'd be pissed off too---at a minimum. But I tend to doubt this was the story here. She obviously is troubled.

But I see what I see and today's incident does trouble me. Is this just one slightly nutty lady whose food maybe went down the wrong way or indicative of any or all of the above alluded to?

Your thoughts, ladies and gentlemen...................

Edited October 15, 2008 by fasstrack

[Stereojack]

As long as you are sure that you were polite and respectful up to the time that she began to demean you, chances are that you have encountered an asshole who uses race as a crutch to excuse her own disrespectful behavior. Clearly this woman has a chip on her shoulder, and her son will probably have a lot to work out within himself when he gets older.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Stereojack

[Christiern]

I once promoted an employee to a higher-paying position as switchboard operator. When I receive complaints from other staff members that she was listening in on conversations, I had a talk with her and made it clear that such invasion of privacy would not be tolerated. She said she understood and apologized, but her "monitoring" continued, and so did the complaints. I had no choice but to fire her. She went off, accused me of racial discrimination, I had fired her because she was black, she was going to report me to this and that organization, etc. I told her to go ahead.

She did nothing about it and I'm sure that's because she knew she was wrong. I think that is probably also the case with your passenger, Joel, but you are probably right, she clearly has a problem and it's easy to simply blame everything on race. We have had people on this board who exhibit similar unreasonable paranoia.

I think you did the right thing and I hope it gives her something to think about, but the boy—as you say—is her real victim and one hopes that he has teachers who can counteract mother's ignorance.

[7/4]

I'm almost the only white guy in my building of 144 apts., the woman across the hall does not talk to me or acknowledge that I'm in the elevator. Everyone else here is very nice to me.

.

[Tom Storer]

Lots of people have bad intentions, racist attitudes, and so forth; some people don't know how to deal with that well. Handling all confrontations by saying "you are acting in bad faith because you're a racist" has the dual advantage of protecting oneself against genuine racist attitudes and giving oneself an out whenever there's even the possibility of racist attitudes; the first advantage is self-protection, the second is self-indulgence.

But it's hard to come to general conclusions. Her conclusion--"this conflict is not my fault, it's the fault of your racism"--while it may not have been accurate this time, may well have been accurate on other occasions with other people.

I don't know that the incident is indicative of anything in particular on a larger scale, other than the presence of racism in America. Her experience of racism as a black American is no doubt part of her own troubles as an individual. She didn't just pull that accusation out of a hat, she did so after first picking a fight; also her son was there and she needed to frame the incident, in which she pointlessly bickered with a taxi driver to such an extent that she and her son were ejected, in a way that wasn't embarassing to her. Better, in her mind, to have her son thinking "that awful racist was mean to my mother" than to have him thinking "Mom is a crank who can't get along with anyone and embarasses me in public." Although he is probably aware of that anyway.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Tom Storer

[AllenLowe]

I think it's ok as long as she wasn't an Arab -

[paul secor]

Joel, having met you, I'm sure you were cool with everything you did. Sooner or later you come across people like this, and stuff like this happens. It can make you crazy if you let it. If you're able to, just write it off as an aberration. I know that's not an easy thing to do.

edit - Given all that's gone down and continues to go down with race in this country, I'm sure that this will happen for you again sometime. And stuff like this goes down for black folks everyday - not that that helps the feelings that you have over the situation you described.

Race is the biggest issue that people in the U.S. have to deal with - at least imo.

Edited October 15, 2008 by paul secor

[Shawn]

There are plenty of people that I've met over the years who seemed to think because they were a minority they could "do anything they wanted" with no fear of reprisals.

The worst case of this was a co-worker who was black and also a homosexual (I'm not intolerant), but he would proudly tell this to all his co-workers and say things like "there's no way they'll fire a gay black man". When he was written up for a office rules infraction he filed a lawsuit against my boss (who was the nicest guy on the planet). This essentially tied Human Resources hands...and his behavior worsened the entire time this was going on. He "had" to have a larger computer monitor than anyone else in the office, his own personal refrigerator, the most expensive office chair he could find...and while he was getting all these perks he was rubbing it in the noses of the rest of the staff "see how a black man can scam the system", etc.

Eventually the department had a layoff and managed to dump him in amongst the others...he did manage to walk out with that monitor and refrigerator though...

No real lesson to be learned here, other than playing the race card can come from multiple directions.

[GA Russell]

fasstrack, my first thought is that the situation may have been generational as well as racial.

In the 90s I visited the downtown Atlanta library religiously once every two or three weeks to read the seven (!) Canadian newspapers they subscribed to to catch up on the Canadian league games.

Between the staff and the patrons, I dealt with people of every sort (including winos). I found that the most charming and gracious people were consistently the middle age and older black women, and the rude and chip-on-the-shoulder types were always the young (early 20s) black women.

I remember thinking to myself, I'm glad I'm not a young black man in the market for a wife, because those guys have nothing but bitches to choose from.

So now it is ten years later, and those young black women are now in their 30s with children, and apparently are rude to cab drivers. It's not just racial, because I'm sure that the gracious black ladies I met were the victims of discrimination too. That's why I suspect it's generational.

[AllenLowe]

I've been working here 6 years - I figure no one will fire a psychotic Jew with a black belt, frequent LSD/Vietnam flashbacks, a prosthetic leg, a glass eye, 4 shotguns, and the nuclear launch codes to several silos in the Midwest -

Edited October 15, 2008 by AllenLowe

[papsrus]

Sounds to me from what you described that the woman just had a bee up her ass to begin with.

Firstly, she should be teaching her child what "polite" behavior is. I can't imagine the kid felt real comfortable with mommy being bitchy. If she came on with an attitude because of the route you were taking (you are the driver, after all), it's on her, IMO. She could have just as easily asked you politely about the route, and everyone's happy.

Even if it was a misunderstanding where both parties are more or less equally at fault (for whatever reason), for her to assume your behavior is motivated by racism displays more than a little arrogance. How could she know? What she's really teaching her child is to presume the worst about people. Not good.

IMO

[The Red Menace]

I've been working here 6 years - I figure no one will fire a psychotic Jew with a black belt, frequent LSD/Vietnam flashbacks, a prosthetic leg, a glass eye, 4 shotguns, and the nuclear launch codes to several silos in the Midwest -

Have you considered running for president, comrade?!? On certain tickets you might fit right in!!!

[Daniel A]

Through college I worked weekends as a bus driver (and to some people's astonishment sometimes still do, despite having a more qualified office job) and some have played the racist card on me, too. But I know I'm doing a good job, and through the years I've learned not to take unfair or aggressive comments with me after leaving work. Often it takes me just a few seconds too long to figure out the "perfect" response which would have left the offender looking like a fool, and it can be frustrating in that very moment, but I've managed to make a funny story of such episodes or just forget them altogether, because I know that it's the other person who's got a problem, not me.

However, a job like this brings many good things as well, and after all those thousands of people passing by I've found that I've become a much better judge of other people's character at a first meeting.

Regarding female passangers, I've found teenage girls to be the most nonchalant customers of all, and retired women most likely to complain about all and anything (although there are many wonderful characters among elderly women, too).

[Neal Pomea]

Consider what angered the woman in the first place. She got angry all out of proportion because you made a turn she didn't know about. I would say that the woman got angry out of proportion due to her own feeling of some kind of incompetence navigating the city. Then she took it out on you for "making her angry" by lecturing to her son that it was you who was incompetent with your manners due to the way you were brought up.

Maybe you too got a little angry out of proportion, feeling put on the defensive by her, which was only natural. If your anger was disproportionate to her "threat," then maybe you just could remind yourself more often that you are not racist after all. Once you realized that the problem was with the lady, not you (as Daniel A. pointed out), you could probably easily let it go.

I would say she is definitely confusing her child!

GA Russell's point that this might be generational was also interesting.

Edited October 15, 2008 by It Should be You

[Dan Gould]

Let's not all assume that the kid is going to just grow up with issues. Depending on how effective her indoctrination is, he just might grow up to be a racist too. Change the races around and maybe move the conversation to the dinner table, and this is how a lot of white racists are taught what to believe.

[Niko]

don't take people like that too seriously the upset you but i am sure they are in the minority [within their minority]! my dorm mate from uzbecistan was big at playing the nazi card all the time; he really wasn't easy to live with and i believe we did let him have his freedom (like nobody said a word when he sub-rented his room to a prostitute... nothing against her personally (though you don't want to know what she looked like without makeup, she took 50 euro a week iirc), it's just nobody is happy to share bath and kitchen with someone who has so much higher risks healthwise... one word from any of us and he would have lost the room from one day to the other...) well whenever anybody told him to do his dishes at least every other week, not to masturbate under the shower (or at least to leave it clean and not to talk about his erection problems in there all the time) until the second shower was repaired so that the others (six of us) could use the second one... the guy would write a long letter "i always thought the situation in germany had changed after ww2, i always felt welcome here, but now..." [looking back i can't believe all this really happened]

[Aggie87]

[Christiern]

[Jazzmoose]

fasstrack, the woman was obviously an asshole. Anyone who lectures a kid like that using a person who is present as an example is just a complete asshole, even if you had been guilty of whatever act she thought you were guilty of. (Sounds like to me that you were guilty of the incredibly heinous act of not realizing that, as a service provider, you are obligated to kiss ass and take any shit offered; I have that experience about once a month on my present job, but I've had worse jobs, too. ) Anyway, as far as her 'playing the race card', just remember that it's hard for a person to admit to themselves that they're being an asshole, particularly when they are regularly guilty of that (as, I'm willing to bet, this woman is), so the obvious action is to blame someone else. We all do it; some just do it all the time. At this point, "you're doing it because I'm black" has about as much content as "the moon is made of green cheese". In other words, don't let it worry you, even though, as a good person, you can't help but let it worry you...

[Jazzmoose]

Let's not all assume that the kid is going to just grow up with issues. Depending on how effective her indoctrination is, he just might grow up to be a racist too. Change the races around and maybe move the conversation to the dinner table, and this is how a lot of white racists are taught what to believe.

Personally, I think she has more problems than racism. She seems to qualify as a really good all-around asshole...

[fasstrack]

Lots of people have bad intentions, racist attitudes, and so forth; some people don't know how to deal with that well. Handling all confrontations by saying "you are acting in bad faith because you're a racist" has the dual advantage of protecting oneself against genuine racist attitudes and giving oneself an out whenever there's even the possibility of racist attitudes; the first advantage is self-protection, the second is self-indulgence.

But it's hard to come to general conclusions. Her conclusion--"this conflict is not my fault, it's the fault of your racism"--while it may not have been accurate this time, may well have been accurate on other occasions with other people.

I don't know that the incident is indicative of anything in particular on a larger scale, other than the presence of racism in America. Her experience of racism as a black American is no doubt part of her own troubles as an individual. She didn't just pull that accusation out of a hat, she did so after first picking a fight; also her son was there and she needed to frame the incident, in which she pointlessly bickered with a taxi driver to such an extent that she and her son were ejected, in a way that wasn't embarassing to her. Better, in her mind, to have her son thinking "that awful racist was mean to my mother" than to have him thinking "Mom is a crank who can't get along with anyone and embarasses me in public." Although he is probably aware of that anyway.

Thoughtful offering as usual Tom. I thought the response to perceived racism coupled w/defensiveness (shutting me off after my first feedback and speaking only to her son) indicative of larger, more serious troubles, though clearly she had some less than stellar experiences with whites.

Re her son: I wouldn't assume he's aware of any of that, though perhaps he is. What troubled me and pissed me off is, of course, that this malleable and open child is being telegraphed negative BS and denied the chance to draw his own conclusions. Oh well, he'll begin the never-ending trek toward adulthood after leaving home, one would hope.

[fasstrack]

Joel, having met you, I'm sure you were cool with everything you did. Sooner or later you come across people like this, and stuff like this happens. It can make you crazy if you let it. If you're able to, just write it off as an aberration. I know that's not an easy thing to do.

edit - Given all that's gone down and continues to go down with race in this country, I'm sure that this will happen for you again sometime. And stuff like this goes down for black folks everyday - not that that helps the feelings that you have over the situation you described.

Race is the biggest issue that people in the U.S. have to deal with - at least imo.

Paul: Thanks. Long time no hear from. It really was no big deal, and nowhere near made me crazy, only concerned and thinking---and this was a good place to put it from the thoughtful responses so far.

. (And speaking of Big Diehls I spoke to Eddie the other day---Note:Paul and I met through my longtime buddy fellow jazz guitarist Eddie Diehl. The three of us had a nice dinner in |Poughkeepsie not too long ago).

[fasstrack]

Thanks everyone. As far as this bothering me personally, that 'un's already 'long gone from Kentucky'. But it's good that most folks' reading here is that this is no bigger than the mind of the woman involved---in other words not very.

Anyway, FWIW I'll be out of the driving racket soon as my playing-teaching schedule is picking up and I expect to be cooking by '09. But, since Chris has observed, when in a good mood I'm a 'silver lining' kind of guy and the driving experience, though largely a shit and stressful job, has given me exposure to many nice people---BTW including Dr. Billy Taylor, who I knew before as a neighbor. I got to to know him a bit beyond the driving and the more I know the more I like. Very personable, generous guy who accomplished a tremendous lot in this biz and ain't done yet. Since I'm back in the business I hope I can report soon we've interacted as musicians.

And he was far from the only one I've enjoyed the company of. I guess maybe it's where I currently am in life, (when I was in a shit mood recently and for a long time I hated not only the job but also doing just about anything, socially, musically, or otherwise) but that cliche about getting back what you put out across the board can't be repeated enough---to myself, that woman, and all us knucklehead humanoids.

[.:.impossible]

don't take people like that too seriously the upset you but i am sure they are in the minority [within their minority]! my dorm mate from uzbecistan was big at playing the nazi card all the time; he really wasn't easy to live with and i believe we did let him have his freedom (like nobody said a word when he sub-rented his room to a prostitute... nothing against her personally (though you don't want to know what she looked like without makeup, she took 50 euro a week iirc), it's just nobody is happy to share bath and kitchen with someone who has so much higher risks healthwise... one word from any of us and he would have lost the room from one day to the other...) well whenever anybody told him to do his dishes at least every other week, not to masturbate under the shower (or at least to leave it clean and not to talk about his erection problems in there all the time) until the second shower was repaired so that the others (six of us) could use the second one... the guy would write a long letter "i always thought the situation in germany had changed after ww2, i always felt welcome here, but now..." [looking back i can't believe all this really happened]

Niko? Dare I ask, what's your living situation these days?

This may be a new thread... I've had roommate situations in the past, but...

Niko?

[JSngry]

Was this chick a singer?