STUDIO albums of mostly ORIGINALS, that really ought to be better

[Rooster_Ties]

This thread is supposed to be for STUDIO albums of MOSTLY ORIGINAL material -- that just don't live up to expectations. (So NOT live dates, and NOT hastily thrown together studio dates made up mostly of standards). I'll go first...

Now normally I'm practically a charter member of the "Woody Shaw can do no wrong" society (save for a handful of his later dates or sideman appearances, after his eyesight really began to fail). But here and now, I'll confess that I've never really dug either of his first two leader dates ("Blackstone Legacy" or "Song of Songs") -- not even half as much as I'd really like to. And after spinning both of them yesterday, I've finally come to the conclusion that it ISN'T me -- these dates just don't click.

RE: "Blackstone Legacy" -- Gary Bartz & Bennie Maupin both seem more unfocussed here than they really ought to -- especially given Maupin's BRILLIANT playing on disc #1 of Chick Corea's "Complete 'IS' Sessions" -- where I swear Maupin rivals Wayne Shorter (and specifically "circa 1969 Shorter live with Miles" at that). Not so here, Maupin ain't 'on'. And Bartz too seems not to be clicking with the rest of the group either. I normally LOVE Woody's free playing (in damn nearly every context I've ever heard it), but here it just doesn't work for me. It seems brash for brash's sake only, and unconnected with the rest of the proceedings. The "two bass players" thing doesn't work, and whoever is on electric is just bad (and that's 'bad' with only one 'a') -- overly busy, formulaic, and downright cheesy without bringing anything solid or functional to the role. (In other words, "cheesy" isn't always bad -- but it sure as hell is here.) And Lenny White just doesn't do it for me here either. Was the band recorded with each member in isolation chambers?? The sound is more than a little weird, but not as much so as Woody's Columbia dates (which were in isolation chambers, if I remember right, or at least they sure sound like it).

RE: "Song of Songs" -- I have some of the same complaints. Shaw is better here, but either Emanuel Boyd or Ramon Morris (both on tenor) are just downright awful at times (I haven't read the liners closely enough to figure out if one can tell which solos belong to whom).

Neither of these dates seem even half as satisfying as Andrew Hill's "Passing Ships" -- which needed to stay in the oven a little bit more, but never the less is some POWERFUL stuff.

Or maybe another comparison -- Lee Morgan's last studio date (the one with Billy Harper and Grachan Moncur) is about 100 times more satisfying as either of these two Woody Shaw albums -- both of which ought to be nearly as good, if you just were looking at the personnel lists and recording dates.

Any albums by any favorite artists of yours that just DON'T measure up -- even though they look GREAT on paper???

Edited October 12, 2008 by Rooster_Ties

[sidewinder]

I actually spoke to John Koenig once about that 'Blackstone Legacy' session and he mentioned that Shaw was 'a bit lubricated' at that session and that it was a tough one to complete. All a bit rushed, I believe.

I loke both albums by the way - but they are a little chaotic in parts.

Edited October 12, 2008 by sidewinder

[sidewinder]

How about this one? Not a bad album - but by the incredibly high standards of McLean and Moncur in the 1960s it doesn't live up to the very high expectations IMO. No fireworks - a misfire..

Edited October 12, 2008 by sidewinder

[A Lark Ascending]

There have been some marvellous cross-Atlantic collaborations in recent years, but this one just left me cold. I bought it because of John Taylor but he seems to have little presence on what sounds like the jazz equivalent of a mid-Atlantic accent.

I suspect a large number of 'summit' albums that throw together wonderful musicians for one-off projects might end up here!

[AndrewHill]

Maybe its just me, but some parts of 'A Slice of a Top" just don't jell completely, even though I'm just happy to have it. In concept though, its still a worthy album (although I think everything was written by Mobley except for one tune).

[John L]

Yea, "Blackstone Legacy" and "Song of Songs" are pretty wild hit-and-miss kind of albums that have their early-70s vintage written all over them. But I still enjoy listening to them a lot more than some of Woody's later more straight ahead albums, for example, "The Time is Right" or" Lotus Flower." Those two albums lack a certain spark (IMO), despite the fine quintet with Turre, Miller, James, and Reedus.

[JSngry]

Blackstone Legacy was actually one of those early 70s "buzz" albums, as I remember. You know, the type thing where people "in the know" would ask you had you heard it.

[Joe]

I've tried and tried, and I love the work of every player involved. But... this one still does not connect with me. At the end of the day, I have to fault the compositions themselves, which I find a little too schematic / straitjacketing.

[B. Clugston]

I've never warmed to Blackstone Legacy -- should be better on paper, but I find it too unfocused. I love Song of Songs though. One of my favourite Woody recordings.

[Niko]

can only second what others have said on blackstone legacy and song of songs... blackstone legacy doesn't really click for me either... song of songs does have a certain roughness to it but since most of woody's leader discs are a bit too smooth/polished for my tastes i don't complain... think iron men is the only shaw recording that i really like better than song of songs... btw, i am pretty sure it says on the song of songs cd which tenor player is on the left/right channel; i've bought many (say, more than half) of shaw's albums after really digging him on demon's dance and unity and was pretty much always disappointed to varying degrees

did shaw ever record an album under his own name that worked out as well as unity? (from what i've heard i feel the answer is definitely no)

Edited October 13, 2008 by Niko

[AndrewHill]

did shaw ever record an album under his own name that worked out as well as unity? (from what i've heard i feel the answer is definitely no)

Unity is a monster and probably considered to be in the top echelons of organ jazz period. But concerning Woody's leader dates, I like The Moontrane and Rosewood quite a bit with Stepping Stones not too far behind; I would think that those are considered top shelf Shaw.

Honorable Mention: Woody smokes on the Jody Grind.

[Niko]

did shaw ever record an album under his own name that worked out as well as unity? (from what i've heard i feel the answer is definitely no)

Unity is a monster and probably considered to be in the top echelons of organ jazz period. But concerning Woody's leader dates, I like The Moontrane and Rosewood quite a bit with Stepping Stones not too far behind; I would think that those are considered top shelf Shaw.

Honorable Mention: Woody smokes on the Jody Grind.

hmm... rosewood never really convinced me, the other two i must admit i haven't played as much as i should... remember liking stepping stones quite a bit... but given that shaw is one of the greatest jazz trumpet players (and maybe my personal favorite) i find his albums surprisingly weak...

[John L]

Unity does set the bar pretty high. But a few other excellent Woody Shaw albums can be added to those mentioned by Holy Ghost: Woody III, the Woody Shaw Concert Ensemble at the Berliner Jazz Stage, In My Own Sweet Way, Master of the Art, Little Red's Fantasy.

Whether or not they reach the level of Unity is a matter of debate, but they are sure are damn good (IMO).

[Free For All]

Unity does set the bar pretty high. But a few other excellent Woody Shaw albums can be added to those mentioned by Holy Ghost: Woody III, the Woody Shaw Concert Ensemble at the Berliner Jazz Stage, In My Own Sweet Way, Master of the Art, Little Red's Fantasy.

Whether or not they reach the level of Unity is a matter of debate, but they are sure are damn good (IMO).

Some of those recently released live dates on Highnote are pretty good too! Especially the first couple volumes.

[Chas]

Lots of possibilities for a thread like this . For now I'll start with these three -

1) Ed Thigpen - Out of the Storm . With Terry , Burrell , Hancock and Carter , this could've been more interesting than it is .

2) Dannie Richmond - "In" Jazz for the Culture Set . Even for a recording done with an eye toward sales , with Raney , Thielemans , Byard and McBee , one might've expected something that doesn't utterly waste their collective talents .

3) Stan Getz - Dynasty . This is by no means a bad recording , but my expectations for Getz , Louiss and Thomas were quite a bit higher . In my opinion , the level of musical inspiration/interaction here doesn't warrant the double-album treatment this recording received .