obsucre LA session saxophonists-- a list (how many do u know?)

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

a CROWN comp- a sampler form the Maxwell davis conducts....series on crown...feat members of the woody Herman big bands, glenn miller, benny goodman, et al

ive put in caps the ones i know: can u bring light to others?

bake russin

dave harris

heinie beau

les robinson

willie schwartz

jewel grant

don ladice

fred falensby

floyd turnham

morris bercov

buss bassey

chuck gentry

AL COHN

joe romano

DON LAMPHERE (SIC: its Lanphere-- lol)

MARTY FLAX (dont know a lot about him but ive heard of him)

PLAS JOHNSON

teddy lee

skeets herfurt

bob jung

bob daws

VIDO MUSSO

BOB COOPER

BILL HOLMAN

Mahlon clark

BUD SHANK

Bill carson

ralph cacho

modesto briseno

frank leal

freddy stulce

william woodman

william green

MARSHAL ROYAL (dont know too much abot him)

Frank West (could it be Wess?)

FRANK FOSTER

Carles Falkes

Bumps Meyers

Jackie Kelson

[marcello]

I know Joe Romano very,very well. I'm sad to say that right now, he had lung cancer and has come back to his hometown of Rochester to be with friends and family. I'll try to see him this week.

Joe Cheese!

[sidewinder]

Jackie Kelso is reasonably well known too.

[danasgoodstuff]

Are some of these pseudonyms?

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

yes perhaps

[Big Beat Steve]

Ha, clearly it is so that to many of you folks jazz apparently did not really start before the 50s , or else you would have been aware of a great many more. This list includes quite a few sidemen from the Big Band era of 1935-45 such as Babe Russin (not Bake!), Heinie Beau, Don Ladice, Chuck Gentry, Skeets Herfurt, Freddie Stulce (and these are NOT pseudonyms!), etc..

Floyd Turnham and Bumps Myers ought to ring a bell to anybody interested in 1945-60 R&B.

[flat5]

and many others...

[Big Beat Steve]

BTW, I have a hunch "Carles Falkes" might be CHARLIE FOWLKES (long-time Basie sideman).

[Stereojack]

A few corrections:

babe russin

don lodice

morris bercov - clarinet

Mahlon clark - clarinet

Jackie Kelso

Most of the names on the list are well known LA based studio musicians, many with experience going back to the 1930's/1940's big bands

[paul secor]

Jay Migliori could be added to the list.

[Niko]

first time i see bill green on a list that doesn't contain buddy collette

[AllenLowe]

greatest saxophonist around: Marty Krystal, though he told me once he gets few session calls because he's not slick enough -

[flat5]

Want some names?

Don Rafael

Herbie Stuart (correction: Herbie Steward)

Harry Klee

Jack Nimitz

Jay Corre

Where to stop?

Edited September 25, 2008 by flat5

[Free For All]

Herbie Stuart

Did you mean Herbie Steward?

[Chuck Nessa]

Can't imagine Chewy doesn't know about Jewel Grant and William Woodman, to say the least.

Jewel is all over the '40s and '50s west coast stuff and WW is the tenor playing brother of Britt Woodman - that's why he's known as Brother Woodman.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

never heard of them. would u guys like the lists of the other instruments as well...it could be fun!

[paul secor]

never heard of them.

Listen to some LA r&b for a change, and you'll come across their names sooner or later.

And maybe try listening to some Cecil Taylor - might get you out of your west coast jazz rut.

[Big Beat Steve]

Did Cecil Taylor play sax too?

BTW, West Coast jazz ain't no rut, it's a matter of conviction for a discerning few! :D

If any jazz style finds people being stuck in a rut, it's much more likely to be Hard Bop! :D (Or is there any other style that is the beginning and end to an equally large number of today's jazz collectors? )

Anyway, it's true that many of those sax men aren't THAT obscure, at least not if you are aware of the bands they played in BEFORE they opted for being buried in the studios as session hacks.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Big Beat Steve

[Ted O'Reilly]

Anyway, it's true that many of those sax men aren't THAT obscure, at least not if you are aware of the bands they played in BEFORE they opted for being buried in the studios as session hacks.

Session Hacks?!? SESSION HACKS!?!

This is from an obit of Earl Palmer (hack) today:

"When you're working in the studios you're playing every genre of music," Hal Blaine, his friend and another prolific session drummer [bBS--read "hack"], said. "You might be playing classical music in the morning and hard rock in the afternoon and straight jazz at night. . . . That's where they separate the men from the boys. If you're going to be a studio musician, it's the top of the ladder."

I've been in and around the jazz/music/broadcasting business for nearly 5 decades now, and I've gotta tell you, there are no finer musicians around than "studio hacks". Don't be putting down a guy just because he didn't want to spend his life on a bus doing one-nighters with Stan or Woody or Duke, or wanted to be part of his children's life.

If you think half those people on the list are obscure, it's because you're ignorant of half the history of the music. Pity.

[Big Beat Steve]

Uh oh ... seems like I did not nearly put enough smilies in that sentence ... It WAS meant tongue-in-cheek.

So NO, I am not denigrating anybody. Even as a simple onlooker on that part of music history, I do know that securing a steady studio job did mean much more regular and predictable working hours AND better pay than with many touring bands, even "name" bands. All quite understandable and all very well. It just is a pity that a lot of those men were lost to the creative aspects of jazz that way.

But now that the subject has come up, let me mention one thing anyhow:

Backing genuine touring acts in the studio such as e.g. in New Orleans R&B (with its supply of studio musicians - such as Earl Palmer - for many chart and touring acts) was one thing as those musicians were part of a living and vibrant musical style and therefore close to the pulse of the music being made by regular touring bands (so Earl Palmer, Lee Allen, etc. certainly aren't what I would have referred to as being "buried in the studios"), but how does this compare to musical jacks of all trades (read: musicians turning out literally any style at the push of a button) in Hollywood or other major studios quite a bit further removed from what you might call the center of R'n'R/R&B recording action of those times?

There may have been a lot of relatively renowned studio musicians, maybe with former jazz credentials, who'd do e.g. orchestra arrangements churned out by the majors to cash in on covers of the originals done maybe on some indie label. Sure, no doubt those studio musicians were technically perfect in their craft, but really, did they at all times and in all settings have the immediacy, spontaneity and urgency that would have made them play their hearts out in the same credible manner as the creators of the originals (or those really deeply rooted in that particular musical style) did? To put it bluntly, that studio orchestra backing up e.g. the McGuire Sisters doing a whitewashed cover of some R&B original for mass pop consumption may have been technically perfect but was it THE REAL THING? Not in a zillion years - it was what even in English has become known as "ersatz" (a substitute of the real thing) and, hence, a hack job. And believe me - I AM familiar with quite a bit of that part of music history because - if only for historical curiosity's sake and on the lookout for collector's obscurities - I've listened to a lot of those borderline acts hovering on the edges of 50s R&B and R'n'R and usually backed up by studio orchestras no doubt often staffed with former jazzmen who had opted for the security of the studios. (Understandably do, but as far as their output in those "cover record" styles was concerned, it was just an imitation compared to those really ROOTED in the style of the originals - technical proficiency notwithstanding). Do you really think it is a coincidence that a tongue-in-cheek compilation of that kind of 50s R'n'R/R&B imitation music reissued some years ago was called "Rockin' is NOT our Business" ?

It's a bit like some Hollywood studio orchestra normally associated with backing pop crooners all of a sudden recreating "The Greatest Hits of Duke Ellington". How would this stand up with jazz collectors, I ask you?

If you'd really care to see music history from THAT side of the fence (obviously the opposite of those involved in the production of such music), may I suggest you check out "The Restless Generation" by Pete Frame for your reading - a highly interesting book on how rock music "changed the face of 1950s Britian" - and he DOES dwell on the problem of many a rock act's performance being literally ruined by studio musicians who played technically competent enough but often simply without the proper feel for the idiom, which in turn resulted in a lot of those 45s being just pale imitations of their "live" sound - but it was that "stage sound" that the teenage audience expected finding on the records of their pop heroes. And going by all aural evidence I have little reason to believe the situation was all different in the USA e.g. when it came to pop covers of R&B songs.

BTW, most of the guys on that list AREN'T obscure to ME, but not because they may have been with Frank DeVol, Gordon Jenkins or any other 50s studio orchestra but because of their presence in those orchestras that actually made it into jazz discographies and jazz record collections.

Just my 2c (on the other side of the coin), and with all due respect ...

Edited September 25, 2008 by Big Beat Steve

[Ted O'Reilly]

Uh oh ... seems like I did not nearly put enough smilies in that sentence ... It WAS meant tongue-in-cheek.

..................

Just my 2c (on the other side of the coin), and with all due respect ...

Apology accepted. (I can never find the right smilie, or use them properly).

I have only a little interest in early R&B, just what I remember from my youth, and much less in early R&R. Backing the McGuire Sisters must have been a pain, but even THEY were professional enough to get through the session in three hours. Pop (disposable) music wasn't made in the same way it is now, as I'm sure you know.

Don't think though, that playing in the (soul-sucking) studios all day didn't mean they weren't out roaring in jazz clubs at night, probably moreso in NYC than LA or London. (Kenny Wheeler paid for his modest house out of studio work, not ECM recordings).

I think many musicians considering the studio work their JOB, the jazz their ART. Painting walls 9-5, painting the Sistine Chapel ceiling at night. Same brush, same ability.

[Big Beat Steve]

So it seems like we DO agree after all.

I'd never doubt that those studio musicians welcomed the opportunities of cutting loose at jazz sessions. So I guess we can agree on using the term "hack" in the sense of them doing their "hack" jobs in the studios and adding "art" sessions after finishing those day jobs.

[Ted O'Reilly]

So it seems like we DO agree after all.

I'd never doubt that those studio musicians welcomed the opportunities of cutting loose at jazz sessions. So I guess we can agree on using the term "hack" in the sense of them doing their "hack" jobs in the studios and adding "art" sessions after finishing those day jobs.

Yup, the jobs were 'hack', not the musicians. But you DID originally say "...they opted for being buried in the studios as session hacks." My interpretation was that you meant the musicians were hacks. "Session" as modifier for "hack" (the musician).

[flat5]

"Did you mean Herbie Steward?"

Yes I did. I have great difficulty with spelling.

I check by using Google. This time it did not work for me.

Actually I thought his name was Stewart.

My bad :-)

I'd like to include Bob Hardaway (1928) in the list but I'm not sure he played in

any of the famous old big bands.

Edited September 25, 2008 by flat5

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

so u know in the drum listing for this crown lp i listed the sax players for, earl palmer is listed as one of the drummers, no foolin'