Cecil Taylor 1963 - 65: Recordings?

[1009]

This is my first thread so go easy.

I've been reading a lot about Cecil Taylor recently after listening for many years. I keep wondering, however: where are recordings of CT between Nefertiti and Unit Structures? Of course there's the obvious answer that no company would sink any money into his music, but how then does he suddenly get a deal w/ Blue Note? Is there really no audio documentation of Taylor's work from 1963 to 1965? Not even boots?

Thanks for your help!

[king ubu]

indeed nothing around as far as I know... but some boots are documented, see here:

http://www.webmutations.com/ceciltaylor/

[Late]

February 1964

Take 3 Coffee House, Greenwich Village, New York, NY (USA)

CECIL TAYLOR GROUP

Cecil Taylor (p)

Bill Dixon (tp)

Roswell Rudd (tb)

Albert Ayler (ts)

Jimmy Lyons (as)

Carla Bley (p)

Paul Bley (p)

Gary Peacock (b)

Sunny Murray (dr)

Now that would have been a show. Three pianos?

[7/4]

I wonder if that was actually more than one band, just sharing the bill. A coffee house in the village might not be a spacious place, even then.

[Late]

I wonder if that was actually more than one band, just sharing the bill.

That was my original thought too. I have a hard time conceiving two pianists in addition to Cecil — unless maybe Paul was playing inside the piano, and Carla was on a prepared piano. That would be interesting!

[JSngry]

Looks like some Jazz Composers Guild affair.

[paul secor]

Sad that Cecil played hardly any gigs in '63-'65.

[Guest youmustbe]

Paul Motian told me that when he played the Take 3 with Bley in the quintet with Peacock, Ayler and Gilmore, they split the money and on Saturday night they all hauled in 5 bucks a piece!

Gary told me that what with cab fare, it cost him more than he made. But it was about the music, not the money at those gigs.

I remember all the bands I heard at the Cellar Cafe. If there were more than 10 paying customers....

A different time.

[clifford_thornton]

February 1964

Take 3 Coffee House, Greenwich Village, New York, NY (USA)

CECIL TAYLOR GROUP

Cecil Taylor (p)

Bill Dixon (tp)

Roswell Rudd (tb)

Albert Ayler (ts)

Jimmy Lyons (as)

Carla Bley (p)

Paul Bley (p)

Gary Peacock (b)

Sunny Murray (dr)

Now that would have been a show. Three pianos?

I'll have to consult Dixonia on that one - seems a bit misleading and that there were two, if not three groups.

[Chuck Nessa]

More likely some sitting in.

[erhodes]

1963

The citation for 12/31/63 Lincoln Center concert at the webmutations site may not be entirely accurate. I am aware of a WKCR broadcast around the time of the concert but it was of the Coltrane quintet with Dolphy that also appeared on the bill with Taylor. The Coltrane tape was definitely erased at the station but it may have been a performance recorded in the station itself, not a recording of the concert. AFAIK the question of whether or not any of the sets from the concert were actually recorded or whether tapes survive remains unanswered.

1964

From a very old discography by Mike Hames (London): "Cecil Taylor seems to have played very few gigs in 1964 - partly because he was attacked in May, 1964 and had his wrist broken."

The February 1964 performance at the Take 3 on the webmutations site is listed as "Cecil Taylor Unit and guests" on page 67 of Dixonia. It predates the Jazz Composers Guild. The session is listed in the book as not recorded.

The transcript of the April 6, 1964 panel discussion at Bennington referenced on the webmutations site is now here. Mike Hames thought that Taylor's solo performance at Bennington on the 5th or 6th might be the source of a recording entitled "Cathedrale" that was advertised in the program for a March 7, 1965 Taylor performance at Town Hall. The recording appears to have been produced by Taylor. It was offered in the form of an lp but the record never actually materialized. It is reasonable to assume that a recording did exist at one time but I have been unable to establish that it still exists or that any steps were actually taken to create the lp.

Dixonia lists Taylor performances produced by Bill Dixon on October 30-31 (the last concert of the October Revolution), November 25 on a bill with the New York Art Quartet (listed as the Roswell Rudd-John Tchicai Quartet) and December 28 (the first concert of the Four Days in December series). None of these are listed as recorded.

1965

The March 1965 concert listed on the webmutations site is very likely the March 7 concert for which I have the program. Only Lyons is listed on the program. On page 363 in Dixonia the note to the session says that Taylor prerecorded the music to the track listed at webmutations as "Soft Shoe" and that dancer/choreographer Daniel Nagrin danced to it while Cecil performed it again (at least that's what it seems to say). However, the note then goes on to say that the tape was actually of another pianist "peforming a transcription of Taylor's music". No recording of the concert itself is listed in Dixonia.

A tape of the June 2 Newport performance does exist. My source is very reliable (thought it is not Taylor) but I have absolutely no other details. At best, this is a very, very long way from any consideration of commercial release.

The September 10 performance for "The Arts in America" television broadcast exists and has been issued commercially on Ozone 19, "Charlie Mingus - Cecil Taylor", a Boris Rose boot. The aural evidence strongly suggests that Sunny Murray is the drummer, though this does not fit with any Taylor chronologies. I had a correspondance from a Taylor collector who claimed to have seen the actual tv show. He stated that Cecil was using a birdcage to strike the strings within the piano and that Murray was definitely the drummer.

[king ubu]

What is "Dixonia"? A Bill Dixon sessionography/discography/timeline?

That Rose boot Mingus/Taylor I have somewhere, need to play it again soon!

I have a hunch that the panel discussion is around somewhere, but maybe then again it was only the transcript I ever saw - no time to dig through the old files and piles of CDRs right now, but maybe someone else who's involved in some trading knows more?

[erhodes]

What is "Dixonia"? A Bill Dixon sessionography/discography/timeline?

Dixonia: A Bio-Discography of Bill Dixon

Compiled by Ben Young

Greenwood Press, 1998

A very informative book. It covers sessions that Dixon produced, as well as those in which he performed and recorded. As such, it gives a detailed chronology of sessions at the Cellar Cafe and the Jazz Composers Guild concerts. A lot of information.

[king ubu]

Thanks for that info, Ed - sounds interesting, though I haven't dug deeper into Dixon's music yet.

I guess I could have googled it up myself, but I'm so deep into stupid stuff my time on the web is scaled down to browsing some on Org these days

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

sorry, the master tapes to everything cecil taylor ever recorded have been destroyed

[king ubu]

playing the Ozone right now - much more Mingus on it (and good one!) - the Taylor part is just a couple of fragments, one with Lyons... doesn't fit to the 1965-09-10 entry on the sessionography, really...

[king ubu]

the mingus is this one:

Ed Armour (tp) Charles McPherson (as) Pepper Adams (bars) Jaki Byard (p) Charles Mingus (b) Dannie Richmond (d) "Symphony Sid" Torin (ann)

"Birdland", NYC, October 26, 1962

Monk, Bunk And Vice Versa Ozone 19; Yadeon [J] 501

The Search -

OP. (O.P.O.P.) -

Eat That Chicken (theme) Yadeon [J] 501

* Charles Mingus - Cecil Taylor (Ozone 19)

* Charles Mingus - A Night In Birdland Live, Vol. 2 (Yadeon [J] 501)

someone ought to clean up these Birdland broadcasts and put them in a nice 3CD box, equivalent to what's circulating already... great stuff!

[erhodes]

someone ought to clean up these Birdland broadcasts and put them in a nice 3CD box, equivalent to what's circulating already... great stuff!

This sort of exists, though I do not believe there has been a commercial issue. There is a set of cd's apparently dubbed directly from the Boris Rose tapes and/or acetates that is referenced in some discographies. I don't have the reference ready to hand. There is also a limited edition lp box on the BAT label that is apparently missing portions of some of the announcements but is otherwise complete. The BAT box was presumably a boot. I assume the problems for a legit release would arise from conflicting interests between the Mingus estate and the Rose estate.

[clifford_thornton]

Those BAT LP sets are rare and quite expensive.

[erhodes]

playing the Ozone right now - much more Mingus on it (and good one!) - the Taylor part is just a couple of fragments, one with Lyons... doesn't fit to the 1965-09-10 entry on the sessionography, really...

The listing at webmutations is not accurate. A better online listing for this session can be found here. This corresponds directly to the record. AFAIK the two selections on Ozone 19 are complete though short. Other sources have "Octagonal Skirt" and "Fancy Pants" as two separate tracks, which would suggest that Ozone 19 is missing one.

[clifford_thornton]

Got any more of these kicking around?

A limited first edition of Cecil Taylor's work "Cathédrale" is available on a 12-inch LP record. "Cathédrale" is a work for solo piano and is performed by the composer.

This recording can be purchased by sending a check or money order for $5.00 (N.Y.C. residents must include $.20 N.Y.C. sales tax) to "Cathédrale", Apt. 5, 60 Second Avenue, N.Y.C. 1003.

Since this is a limited edition, "Cathedrale" will not be available from any other source.

[erhodes]

Got any more of these kicking around?

A limited first edition of Cecil Taylor's work "Cathédrale" is available on a 12-inch LP record. "Cathédrale" is a work for solo piano and is performed by the composer.

This recording can be purchased by sending a check or money order for $5.00 (N.Y.C. residents must include $.20 N.Y.C. sales tax) to "Cathédrale", Apt. 5, 60 Second Avenue, N.Y.C. 1003.

Since this is a limited edition, "Cathedrale" will not be available from any other source.

I don't think it happened and nobody seems to know anything. I posted to the Cecil list, I asked Ben Young... Ras Moshe said he would ask Cecil but I never heard back from him.

Someone...here?...the Cecil list?...said they sent in the 5 bucks back then and never heard back. I can't find anyone that's heard the recording, let alone has the lp. If it really is from Bennington, the webmutations site has a note from a Bennington alum saying he thinks everything was erased...