Alexander's Marriage Woes

[Ed S]

Sorry to read the news Alexander. There's lots of good advice above.

From my own experience - if you know that you've tried everything to keep your marriage together, than there's nothing else you can do except move forward. Once the feelings are gone, they're gone, IMO, and you can't force them to come back The key is to find out if they are gone - or buried under a pile of life's crap - as I think Jim so eloquently put it. Since it takes 2 to tango and you've said above that you still love your wife, you have to come to grips with the fact that she's lost that feeling. Shit happens and people grow apart. My advice is for one of you to split ASAP. Staying together can lead to confusion, and perhaps resentment. One of you should move out.

By all means try to keep things as friendly as possible. And at the same time keep things moving toward finalization of the divorce. Mine did not work out that way unfortunately. The goal of being the "best divorce ever" - not my words - degraded to total acrimony over about 3 years of jerking me around. No matter what the intent - during the course of a divorce proceeding - or as in my case a divorce epic - things change in the circumstances of each person's life. The longer those changes are allowed to influence the good intent at the time of separation - the worse, IMO. Like pulling off a bandaid, the quicker the better.

There's a lot more info I could share but would prefer not to do so publicly. PM me with any specifics and I can share my experiences.

Best of luck

[Hot Ptah]

Ed Swinnich has hit on a key point. Are her feelings dead, or is she just frustrated at you over one or more things and sees no way out? If her feelings aren't dead, you can change the situation by agreeing with everything she wants.

"Agreeing with everything she wants"--how else can a guy stay married for any period of time? I always thought it just went with the territory.

[PHILLYQ]

Ed Swinnich has hit on a key point. Are her feelings dead, or is she just frustrated at you over one or more things and sees no way out? If her feelings aren't dead, you can change the situation by agreeing with everything she wants.

"Agreeing with everything she wants"--how else can a guy stay married for any period of time? I always thought it just went with the territory.

There is also a price to pay for "Agreeing with everything she wants"- you may start to lose yourself and lose track of what YOU want. You may become one of those 'Whatever you want' guys and the more you do that the more you may find some resentment biulding up because you rarely do what YOU want. There's a fine line there, that if you cross it you land in a deep pit of self-abnegation. Unfortunately I speak from experience and it's also very painful, perhaps even more than being blasted for wanting what you want. Just my $0.02, YMMV.

Whatever happens, Alexander, be a good daddy to your young daughter and resist the temptation to knock your (ex)wife in front of your daughter. Best of luck to you.

[JSngry]

I don't think that "Agreeing with everything she wants" is nearly as important as understanding why it is that she wants what she wants, what what she wants might really represent to her, and then expressing clear & unambigous understanding & respect for all that. Whe you do that, there are times when a "baby, I understand that this is important to you, & I'll be there with you if you want me to, but on this one, I'd really like to take a pass" works w/o any muss or fuss. But only sometimes (i.e. - when it's something that truly creeps you out, not just something that you find "dull"), and only when it's sincere.

Using it just to cover for being a self-absorbed dick don't cut it too many times...

[papsrus]

I don't think that "Agreeing with everything she wants" is nearly as important as understanding why it is that she wants what she wants, what what she wants might really represent to her, and then expressing clear & unambigous understanding & respect for all that. ...

Yep. Just "listening," really listening -- that's the key, I think. Women want to express what they're feeling.

Men want to find "solutions." Many times, women don't want to hear about any solutions, especially YOUR solutions. They just want to vent and express themselves and know that they're being heard. Sometimes it's better to not offer any solutions, but just listen, really listen. And when she says something is important to her, you'd darn well better be listening.

In many (many) ways, women want to be taken care of. That's just the nature of things. You stop doing that, they lose interest.

That's what I've learned (too late for my marriage, but not too late for my current situation.)

[JSngry]

In many (many) ways, women want to be taken care of. That's just the nature of things. You stop doing that, they lose interest.

I think it's more a matter of wanting to take care of than it is wanting to be taken care of. Seriously.

Look at all the work - serious work -that goes into being a "stay at home mom". And look at how many women do that work plus work outside the home. And as long as this love-through-deeds is felt to be appreciated & respected, it's (mostly) all good. And when it's not...shit gets funky.

In more ways than a few, they take care of us more than we do them. The wise man recognizes this and spends his life not letting the balance get too far out of wack. What might be seen as "taking care of them" is actually a matter of simply returning the favor. If it ain't, you (or they) don't have a partner, you (or they) have a...pet.

It's a simple equation, really. The more you do for your loved one, the more they do for you. And again the other way. It builds upon itself. When that ain't working, no matter who breaks the cycle,disaster is inevitable.

Edited August 26, 2008 by JSngry

[Noj]

Sorry to read of your troubles, Alexander, and I hope things take a turn for the better for you. Of course, my ineptitude with the fairer sex is the stuff of legend, so I'm no help.

[jazzbo]

It's a simple equation, really. The more you do for your loved one, the more they do for you. And again the other way. It builds upon itself. When that ain't working, no matter who breaks the cycle,disaster is inevitable.

Amen brother.

[kenny weir]

Never knew how much I needed to change until I listened to the two of them laying it down for me.

Ha ha - I paid for a bunch of that, too. Sheesh.

However, the more positive comments herein make me wish a little that we'd shopped around a bit more. But it all costs money.

I did find on more than one occasion that what was ostensibly meant to be impartial was alarmingly adversorial - with me on the receiving end.

The single male counsellor we had, my ex warmed to - until he started calling her on some of HER BS. And then she walked.

In the final mediation sessions to arrange the split, it was me on one side and three women (one, a lawyer) on the other. Or so it seemed. They felt it was perfectly reasonable that a proposal that a fair split of property - car, house, the whole lot - giving her everything and me zip was put on the table. I stood my ground, but it was messy. About six months later, the lawyer phoned me at work to get feedback on how I felt about the whole process, unleashing a tirade that stopped the office.

For me, a bright side has been to acknowledge that it all could've been worse if the split had come several years later than it did.

And my son's mother has learned to appreciate Kenny as a bit of an ace, one who stays fully immersed in Bennie's life - and, inevitably, hers as well. He's a boy with two homes and not merely a McDonald's dad who sees him once a fortnight or whatever.

Alex, I'm sure you're headed that way, too, should your split go ahead. It's pretty cool, actually.

Edited August 26, 2008 by kenny weir

[papsrus]

In many (many) ways, women want to be taken care of. That's just the nature of things. You stop doing that, they lose interest.

I think it's more a matter of wanting to take care of than it is wanting to be taken care of. Seriously.

Oh yes, there's a lot of that, too, of course. Women need to nurture. But I'm with a woman now who in a previous relationship did all the giving without getting anything back. ... That's an empty deal. Communication and intimacy break down. Frustrations are impossible to resolve. And the relationship becomes like a black hole collapsing on itself. You reach critical mass and you can't turn back. You either escape or get crushed.

I think you nailed it here:

The more you do for your loved one, the more they do for you.

The giving is its own reward, isn't it? ... What's your hourly fee again? .....

[BERIGAN]

Alexander, I was thinking about the living arrangements....is it at all possible to move back with your parents for awhile, or are they too far away??? Just thinking that it would show her what it would be like without you doing whatever you do around the house(Clean, cook, take the daughter outside if the Mrs. has a headache, etc) IF there are still feelings there.

It can be a pain to move back into the parents abode, let me tell ya....but it might give you guys a break without having to wait months and months for that chance....

Oh, and from reading this thread, there clearly are some really terrible councilors out there making a good living!!!

[papsrus]

I have already expressed my sadness and thoughts regarding Alexander's news. Imagine my surprise when I went to get my mail today and found a bunch of free magazines in the mailroom. That is not uncommon (we get a right-wing rag called The Sun every day), but I didn't know that there is a publication devoted to divorce!

Can't help but notice all the images are of women. What does that say? Probably that men wouldn't likely consult a magazine like this.

[Jazzmoose]

well, as I like to say about my marriage, we've had 22 happy years - "but you've been married for 26." Well, 22 out of 26 ain't bad -

Reminds me of the line from "How to Murder Your Wife": Not at all, my boy, not at all. Been married 38 years myself. And I don't regret one day of it. The one day I don't regret was... August 2, 1936. She was off visiting her ailing mother at the time.

[Christiern]

Reminds me of the line from "How to Murder Your Wife": Not at all, my boy, not at all. Been married 38 years myself. And I don't regret one day of it. The one day I don't regret was... August 2, 1936. She was off visiting her ailing mother at the time.

Are you aMoosing us with a half-told tale? What, exactly, did happen on Sunday, August 2, 1936? I mean, other than the Olympics opening ceremony in Berlin, the Elkhart Lake fireman's picnic, and the dramatic execution of Zhao Yiman.

[catesta]

Reminds me of the line from "How to Murder Your Wife": Not at all, my boy, not at all. Been married 38 years myself. And I don't regret one day of it. The one day I don't regret was... August 2, 1936. She was off visiting her ailing mother at the time.

Are you aMoosing us with a half-told tale? What, exactly, did happen on Sunday, August 2, 1936? I mean, other than the Olympics opening ceremony in Berlin, the Elkhart Lake fireman's picnic, and the dramatic execution of Zhao Yiman.

I think that was the one day he had to himself.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

In Massachusetts, if you move out of the house, it's considered "child abandonment" and it doesn't bode well in court. I know of several men who had to sleep on their living room couch for years until the divorce proceedings were at a point where it wouldn't be financial ruin to move out.

[Tom Storer]

Men want to find "solutions." Many times, women don't want to hear about any solutions, especially YOUR solutions.

Often, women want to find solutions to problems that, to women's great frustration, men don't consider to be problems to begin with. If they are aware of them at all. My wife is a great nest-maker, to use Jim's metaphor, and living in a nice nest is really very good for one (studies show that the lifespan of married men is greater than that of single men). When my wife comes up with a suggestion for somehow rearranging the living quarters, once upon a time my reaction would be, "But it's nice the way it is!" By now I've learned that she doesn't make such suggestions unless she has analyzed the situation with razor-sharp reasoning, financial as well as aesthetic, thought about it for a long time, and come up with a solution (to the problem I hadn't noticed) that will make the nest even nicer: either better to look at, better in terms of practical arrangement, better in terms of possibilities offered, or all of the above.

They just want to vent and express themselves and know that they're being heard. Sometimes it's better to not offer any solutions, but just listen, really listen.

Absolutely. But if you listen, you can also contribute. They do go together. Lots of men have solutions that go like this: "Problem is X. Solution Y removes X. Let's do Y right now and put all this behind us so we can stop talking about it. Get out of my way, I'm going to do Y right this instant! What do you mean you don't want to do Y? You were just complaining about X! Sheesh!" Whereas a more unisex kind of approach is "Problem is X, huh? Yeah, I guess that's right. But why do we have X? X has some good things about it, too. What do you think? ... We could do Y. How does Y sound? You don't like Y? Why not? Oh, OK. I see your point. But let me try to convince you. Over a glass of wine, I'll pour." Brainstorming between spouses can be a pleasurable and fruitful experience--much better than "Oh hell, another dreary task coming from out of left field. These women and their constant demands."

And when she says something is important to her, you'd darn well better be listening.

Vice-versa too, no?

In many (many) ways, women want to be taken care of. That's just the nature of things. You stop doing that, they lose interest.

Taken care of? Yeah, but in the sense that couples are kind of supposed to take care of each other. In my experience women want not to be taken for granted. You have to keep paying attention to each other and adjusting to all the minor changes. If you're not paying attention, trouble will come. And when you pay attention, they like it, they like you--and pay attention back.

Edited August 26, 2008 by Tom Storer

[seeline]

Alexander, I'm sorry that you're going through all this and hope that you'll find a good resolution, regardless of whether that means splitting up or staying together.

As for women wanting to be "taken care of," I think those of you who are saying that we want to be heard - and that we want dialogue - are right on the money. (Thanks to Tom Storer for that + other thoughts!)

Taking care of others is something that goes deep in our psyches - and our socialization. When I was growing up, a lot of my peers did have the expectation that a husband would take care of them, but that didn't mean they were planning to marry sugar daddies. They were raised to expect men to provide financially, but that didn't change the fact that they felt that they were responsible for providing other kinds of things - lots of them.

I think that women younger than me (young enough to be my kids/grandkids) are more apt to assume that they will have to be providers in the financial sense. But still, there's a lot of pressure on women to somehow be THE care-givers. (Of kids, of elderly parents - have been in that situation myself - and much more.)

And then... there are the people who have never believed that a man was going to be able to provide everything. That would include generations of poor people, and many, many minority groups as well. I think - from my own POV, at least - that the "provider" thing comes from my middle-class upbringing, as well as from the thinking of previous generations. (My grandparents and great-grandparents', certainly.)

Just my .02-worth on some of the issues that seem a bit tangential to the main point of the thread.

Edited August 26, 2008 by seeline

[papsrus]

Alexander, I'm sorry that you're going through all this and hope that you'll find a good resolution, regardless of whether that means splitting up or staying together.

As for women wanting to be "taken care of," I think those of you who are saying that we want to be heard - and that we want dialogue - are right on the money. (Thanks to Tom Storer for that + other thoughts!)

Taking care of others is something that goes deep in our psyches - and our socialization. When I was growing up, a lot of my peers did have the expectation that a husband would take care of them, but that didn't mean they were planning to marry sugar daddies. They were raised to expect men to provide financially, but that didn't change the fact that they felt that they were responsible for providing other kinds of things - lots of them.

I think that women younger than me (young enough to be my kids/grandkids) are more apt to assume that they will have to be providers in the financial sense. But still, there's a lot of pressure on women to somehow be THE care-givers. (Of kids, of elderly parents - have been in that situation myself - and much more.)

And then... there are the people who have never believed that a man was going to be able to provide everything. That would include generations of poor people, and many, many minority groups as well. I think - from my own POV, at least - that the "provider" thing comes from my middle-class upbringing, as well as from the thinking of previous generations. (My grandparents and great-grandparents', certainly.)

Just my .02-worth on some of the issues that seem a bit tangential to the main point of the thread.

Thank you for a woman's point of view.

I guess one of the things is, it's sometimes not easy to figure out what we ourselves want, and when you're in that frame of mind, figuring out what your spouse wants is all but impossible. Coming to some sort of agreement on what is best for the both of you ... well, I don't think it's possible if we don't know what we ourselves want in the first place. That's why I thought it might be helpful for Alexander to figure out what HE wants first. Does he really want to do the work to save his marriage? After he's figured that out, then he can focus on what she wants; what's good for both of them as a unit, etc.

I will say this: I've become much more attuned to these sorts of things now that I'm divorced. (I might seem like a lug nut, but I was worse before). ... Not sure what that says about me or my now-defunct marriage, but there it is.

I do hope Alexander is doing OK.

[seeline]

paps,

Thanks muchly for your response - all true, I think. As for thinking you're a lug nut, nah. we all make mistakes.

And I guess I should have qualified my previous post a bit more, in that the only person I really can speak for is myself. different people want/need different things, and I have known women who expected to be taken care of... Your post made me wonder if those folks (mostly people I went to college with) are still married.

Alexander, again - all the best to you, and here's hoping that things work out well, one way or another.

Edited August 28, 2008 by seeline

[AndrewHill]

A little late to this thread, but I'm really sorry to hear about this Alexander. Hopefully everything will work out amicably and expiditiously.

HG

[Alexander]

Thanks again to all for the good wishes. The funny thing is that there isn't a lot of acrimony or anything like that. We're not constantly screaming at each other, nor are we walking around in stony silence. We still talk and laugh, just like we always did. We still sleep in the same bed at night. When I sit down with her on the couch and my leg touches hers, she doesn't pull it away. Some of it is probably for Sam's (our daughter) benefit, but alot of this goes on when she's asleep or not even here. I don't know.