Cultural level in the U.S.

[Soul Stream]

The Mule's description of the frequent low turnout in jazz clubs in L.A. made me wonder. When Sam Rivers comes to my town and can't draw...I don't really question it. Hell, I live in Austin,Texas. Who in the hell gives a crap about anything but UT Football. .... Anyway. Sure, people are pretty much yokels around here. From "the game" to the multiplex theatre to watch the latest garbage...that's entertainment around here. And, in my mind, entertainment=culture.

But, if McCoy Tyner can't get 200 people off their ass in L.A. to come hear him play. Well, that's just sad. I guess they're all too busy watching the Lakers or whatever.

Edited October 20, 2003 by Soul Stream

[wesbed]

Jazz inspires me. It makes a dull day brighter. Or a heavy period lighter.

After listening to some good jazz ('good' depends on my mood at the time), my mind feels clear, refreshed, and the world seems a better place. I often wonder why others don't get, from jazz, what I get from it. I often wonder how other people can't feel the same inspiration from jazz that I feel. Sometimes I feel sorry for the people who aren't or can't be inspired by the jazz greats. How can they live in the world, happily, without the music to keep them inspired, moving forward, and standing upright?

Sometimes I have thoughts exactly like those expressed by Soul Stream. How can our culture be so caught and/or stuck on 'cultural' events such as the endless number of college football games? Or what was seen at the mutliplex mall cinema? Or, whatever Oprah said this week? To me, it's 'monkey see, monkey do.'

Friends have described my thoughts of our culture as being 'negative.' To each his own, I suppose. However, when discussions of 'culture' revolve around what was seen on the TV, viewed at the movie cinema, or heard on the FM radio, and it all changes on a whim, with no history and no tradition, it seems rather empty to me.

I'm happy to read Soul Stream's comments. To know I'm not the only one with the same kind of thought.

Edited October 20, 2003 by wesbed

[Alexander]

I share your feelings, both of you, but I do think that to get upset by the level of culture in the U.S. is to beat one's head up against a very big brick wall. I used to get upset, but in recent years I've come to the conclusion that the rest of the world can take care of itself in this regard. If they don't want jazz, they don't have to have it. Just keep making it available for people like me, and I'll be satisfied.

I agree with Wesbed's comments about the revitalizing qualities of jazz. I've taken to bringing my discman to work with me so that I may listen to music during my breaks (I tend to eat lunch early, so there's no one else in the breakroom with me. I'm not being anti-social). I find I feel much better after a lunch (even a short lunch) where I've listened to some jazz than I do after a lunch break where I haven't listened to music at all. I feel relaxed and refreshed, and ready to deal with the remainder of the day.

On the other hand, I've spoken with people who claim that jazz makes them nervous. I once played a Bill Evans CD in the presence of a woman who became extremely irritated by the music. I couldn't understand it. I can see people getting irritated by Bird or Diz, or John Coltrane. That's very energetic music, and some people can't dig that. But Bill Evans?! Every he played was mellow, even the fast tunes!

[DrJ]

You won't find me defending the lack of culture in the U.S. However, you will find me chiding people for having a grossly over-idealized, "grass is greener" view of other places/countries in the world. I haven't traveled extensively, but enough to realize that there is precious little difference between the popular cultures of the world these days. Jazz is just as scarce in, say, modern day France or Germany as it is in the U.S. In fact, I found the popular music in Europe to be truly abyssmal, in my view, far worse even than what we get here. And I had just as much trouble finding decent jazz record and CD stores when in Paris as I did in most cities in the U.S. (certainly much slimmer pickings than in NYC and the SF Bay Area).

Jazz is generally perceived as "older people's music" in Europe, I found, just as it is here in the U.S. (except for a smattering of us folks who are, thankfully, out of step with the prevailing winds of musical popularity).

Also, FWIW: Tyner filled a huge civic auditorium here in Sacramento just a couple years ago - well over 1000 people. Shorter and Hancock's touring groups last year filled Mondavi Hall at UC Davis - has an 1800 seat capacity, and it was full to brimming over for both shows. So jazz CAN draw. Why the smaller club dates often don't is a mystery to me - I saw Andrew Hill at Birdland in NYC a couple of years ago with literally a handful of other people, which was really depressing. But it might have a lot to do with timing, promotion, competition with myriad other events (theater, other concerts, US Open Tennis, etc) and other factors other than cultural desolation.

Edited October 20, 2003 by DrJ

[John Tapscott]

Wes: I agree 100% with your comments (and Soul Stream's) and have the same kind of questions as you have. I also get the same kind of uplift and inspiration from jazz as you do. I always try to play some jazz when I'm shaving and getting dressed in the morning. It definitely gets my day off to a better start, and is usually much more uplifting than listening to news and traffic reports and sports scores repeated endlessly.

I just think that jazz always has and always will appeal to a small but significant minority (even in the swing era, the most popular big abnds were not necessarily the most jazz oriented). I don't know why some people "get" it and some don't. It doesn't seem to have much to do with musical ability, since I have very little yet I seem to somehow connect very well with jazz. I do think that to love jazz you have to be a bit of a lone wolf type person, not caring about being part of the "in" crowd or following what's popular. Even though all of us probably have a few jazz friends, you have to be the kind of person who doesn't mind standing alone and going against the grain. Ask yourself where would you rather be, as part of a huge stadium crowd cheering on your favorite football team, or home listening to

your latest Mosaic purchase (or any other fine jazz recording for that matter). For me, even though I enjoy sports, it's defintely the latter. For me, that is peace and joy. For others, it would be akin to hell. Some people just seem to need the presence and approval of lots of people. Others are more content in their solitiude (and if you're a jazz fan, you'll likely have lots of that). For all that North America talks of encouraging individuality and independent thinking, I think our culture really encourages conformity to whatever is popular at the moment. Personally, I could care less about conforming to what is popular.

[BruceH]

I've come to the conclusion that the rest of the world can take care of itself in this regard. If they don't want jazz, they don't have to have it. Just keep making it available for people like me, and I'll be satisfied.

Right on.

[A Lark Ascending]

There's a much more interesting question than 'why don't many people like jazz?' touched on here.

It's why do so many people actively dislike it. All of my friends, workmates and family find it positively irritating.

I think it's the very thing that jazz enthusiasts like - the constant evasion of the melody ("Why won't he just play the damn tune!"), the whole unsettled feel of jazz - that turns them off. I can totally see Alexander's point about some people finding jazz makes them nervous.

Another factor might be that if you don't have a feel for jazz then this might create a feeling of exclusion, a fear that you are not quite bright enough to understand this music that a small group are raving about. Which could in turn create the hostility. I think I react that way towards poetry...and ballet!

*******

I always work on the assumption that if people arn't getting any 'cultural' nourishment from jazz then they are getting it from something else which I don't care for. My experience of most humans is that they all have their places to go to get the depth of feeling that we get from music. As jazz enthusiasts we're just as poor in recognising what they get moved by as they are at understanding what is so meaningful in jazz for us...and often a bit to quick to ridicule what they might like.

I'd love to see jazz with a much wider audience. But I tend to accept that it is a pretty obtuse, off-centre form of expression (which might explain why less than 200 people turn out for Tyner...my question there would be 'Well, what is being done to lead people with little or no jazz experience to a point where they might a) know who Tyner is and B) have some entry point to what he is doing?). The very nature of jazz probably excludes.

I think myself fortunate to have penetrated at least some way beyond its surface. But I'd prefer not to feel too pleased with myself because of it.

[wesbed]

I suppose my complaint is not whether people do or don't appreciate jazz. Upon further consideration, I can accept people not liking the music or understanding it. For as much as the music does for me, the melodies are broken, the tunes are not always foot tapping (but maybe fingerpoppin!), and the rhythms are odd and can change unexpectedly. It's not a beginner's music.

My point is that people seem to be drawn to or away from culture, not because the culture is necessarily good or bad, but because people seem to desire to do whatever everybody else is doing, whatever seems 'cool' at the time, whatever is popular.

[Noj]

Going out in L.A. is expensive. I'd rather buy CDs or records--they last longer.

I had free tickets to the Clipper game the other night--still cost me $100 when all was said and done.

McCoy Tyner and Bobby Hutcherson would have been worth breaking bread for, no question. I'm out of the loop as far as live jazz goes, I should look to improve on that, but I probably won't.

[AfricaBrass]

I live in Southern California and I barely see any live shows. My main reason is that I can't stand going into LA to see shows. I live about 70 miles south of LA and I rarely go up there. SoCal isn't really the best place to live if you like live music. I agree with Noj, it's too expensive for me. It's not a lack of culture, it's more a lack of opportunity for me. I'm hoping to move to Austin early next year. I'm thrilled at the prospect of readily available live music.

[jacman]

i think it has to do with several factors.

one has to listen a little more carefully to jazz than pop music to "get it". pop music has hooks and very repeatitive melodies. easy to listen to.

there is a general perception that jazz people are intellectuals, and one must be very smart to understand Jazz. (a couple of visits to any jazz forum on the net should dispell that myth. )

"do any of these songs have words"?

[A Lark Ascending]

My point is that people seem to be drawn to or away from culture, not because the culture is necessarily good or bad, but because people seem to desire to do whatever everybody else is doing, whatever seems 'cool' at the time, whatever is popular.

I think this is often the case amongst young people. The need to be part of the zeitgeist is very strong, the fear of exclusion very real. Watch the group dynamics of any group of young people and you'll see that as a major factor.

Having said that there are also those...often the excluded...who take a peverse pleasure in going against what everyone else is doing. Revolting into some alternate indie scene...or jazz. Let's be honest, isn't that what many of us were doing when we picked up on jazz. I know I very quickly got a taste for liking things everyone else hated. I'm not sure if thats much different than liking things because everyone else likes them.

Move into adult life and you don't see anything like that same herd instinct. Maybe I mix with some odd adults but I tend to find they have a vast range of different interests, often far from the mainstream. Yes, they might be very conservative in their musical taste and buy whatever the big corporations are serving up. But elsewhere they're attacking their gardens, climbing their mountains, playing their hockey, doing their samba dancing etc with a gusto that at least matches my jazz enthusiasm.

I think 'people' are brighter than you give them credit for.

[A Lark Ascending]

Just as an aside, last week I attended a jazz concert. Great show with a really exciting, up tempo last number. The bloke in front of me turned round and barked "Would you mind not beating time with the music, please?" (I was tapping my foot on the floor).

If that had been my first jazz concert it might have been my last!

[wesbed]

Having said that there are also those...often the excluded...who take a peverse pleasure in going against what everyone else is doing. Revolting into some alternate indie scene...or jazz. Let's be honest, isn't that what many of us were doing when we picked up on jazz. I know I very quickly got a taste for liking things everyone else hated. I'm not sure if thats much different than liking things because everyone else likes them.

You make an excellent point that there is pleasure, for some, in going against what is popular. Yes, I've caught myself doing the same more than once.

My recent interest in jazz has, at times, been pushed ahead knowing that other people aren't into what I am into. However, it wasn't that way in the beginning. I found/discovered jazz and it seemed 'interesting' and 'comforting' to me. I 'liked' the music and could explain why. It wasn't because somebody else liked or didn't like the music.

[A Lark Ascending]

Yes, of course. Cussedness alone does not explain a liking for jazz. I'm sure an attraction to the music lies at the heart of all jazz enthusiasts initial involvement.

After all, there are far more anti-social ways of being 'different' !!!!

[Soul Stream]

I like the constant "learning" that is required of a jazz listener. Opening my ears to things I'm not familiar with is like getting a mental rubdown. I LIKE hearing things that make me wonder. Exploration is a big part of the fun for me.

I ofter wonder why everyday people really seem to "Hate" jazz. I don't get it. And I get that attitude from my wife even. "When are you going to play something somebody wants to listen to?" she asks me when it comes to playing jazz as a musician. It's a drag. And I don't even consider myself a hardcore jazz musician. I'm not playing "Giant Steps" for God's sakes!

...Well, I could go on and on. We all know the deal. We're a very, very, very small minority. But sometimes I wonder why. Although I shouldn't, it applies to all the arts. How many people want to see a small, independent "art" movie...or go see the latest action thriller.

Let's face it, people don't really want to think too much. That's why "Friends" is still on T.V.

[A Lark Ascending]

I like the constant "learning" that is required of a jazz listener.

Is that really the case?

There are plenty of jazz listeners who 'Know what they like and like what they know.' For every 'learning' jazz listener prepared to throw an ear to a new band, a more challenging concept or a jazz style outside of its traditional heartland there's at least one content to stick to the latest Blue Note reissue or Criss Cross release or turn up one more gig where the Sheffield New Orleans Stompers do 'Tiger Rag'.

Nothing wrong with that at all.

But 'learning' is no more 'required' of a jazz listener than it is of a gardener or a mountaineer or a painter.

Much more fun if you do enjoy learning and expanding, however.

As for people not wanting to think too much. Well, I'd say they're probably much too tired after a day or week at work to think too much. THAT's why 'Friends' is still on TV!

Edited October 20, 2003 by Bev Stapleton

[JSngry]

The digital age (internet, 1,000,000,000 channel cable, etc) makes it a LOT easier for people to stay home and get further absorbed in themselves, or when they do go out, to do so for something they already know about. It's probably more complicated than that, but probably not by much. Never before has so many choices led to so few decisions, so much contact to so much isolation, and so much information to so much willfull ignorance. When you can spend all your time going further and further into EXACTLY what turns you on, everything else becomes a nuisance, an annoyance, an invasion of your personal space. Nobody likes THAT. If you don't know it, LOSE it. If it was really worthwhile, you'd already know about it, or at least your friends who like everything you do and think exactly how you do would. There was a time when curiosity and tolerance were desireable traits, because they were necessary. That time has passed. Now, they're nuisances of the highest order.

It's offical, I'm a codger.

[jacman]

It's offical, I'm a codger.

here, you'll need these:

[Jazzmoose]

I like the constant "learning" that is required of a jazz listener. Opening my ears to things I'm not familiar with is like getting a mental rubdown. I LIKE hearing things that make me wonder. Exploration is a big part of the fun for me.

I ofter wonder why everyday people really seem to "Hate" jazz. I don't get it.

Well, if you reverse the order of these two paragraphs, and change the "I like" to "They don't like", I think you'll have a pretty good handle on what's going on.

My wife can be summed up by the earlier comments in the thread by Alexander: jazz makes her nervous. She doesn't like that, she wants music that calms her. I prefer music that excites me, and we're always going to have that gap. When she puts on music, it's almost a form of meditation. It's no surprise to me that the jazz CD of mine that she likes the most (even bought her own copy of it!) was Getz/Gilberto. And that her favorite of my rock LPs is Eno's Evening Star. Both of those (particularly the Eno) sound exciting and "unnerving" to me, but I can understand her approach.

(Aside to Alexander: strangely enough, she does like Evans!)

[wesbed]

My wife can be summed up by the earlier comments in the thread by Alexander: jazz makes her nervous. She doesn't like that, she wants music that calms her. I prefer music that excites me, and we're always going to have that gap.

I can understand how jazz could make a person nervous. It is a chaotic music form to those who are not accustomed to it.

I find it interesting that jazz has always, at the same time, both excited and calmed me.

[AfricaBrass]

My wife also gets agitated by some jazz. I've thought about it and I think in her case, she's used to listening to simple music. I think jazz is too much for her because (in my opinion) there's so much going on and one of the most pleasurable parts of listening for me is hearing how all the different sounds mesh together. It does become multi-dimensional for me.

[jacman]

my spousal unit doesn't like "fast jazz". she'll listen to ballads, as long as there's no 'fast' parts.

[Jazzmoose]

I've thought about it and I think in her case, she's used to listening to simple music.

That's another problem, of course, most people don't want music that you actually have to listen to. Most people really don't want to listen to music, they just want background noise. Or they're so conditioned by movies and television that they feel their life needs a soundtrack...

[AfricaBrass]

Good point, Moose! They're really missing out. That describes how my wife listens to music. It's more of a soundtrack to her life than something she wraps herself around.