When musicians get pissy...

[Robert J]

I keep wavering over whether or not I should join. Anyone do the union thing that has anything good to say about it?

When I was in the union I had the pleasure of paying dues/fees for all the jobs I got myself - I estimate 90% was my own hustling. 10% were union-referral gigs when one of the retired musicians at the union office had gout or something and couldn't take that plum gig.

[JSngry]

I found the union to be useless as far as getting gigs goes, but invaluable when handling breached contracts and such, provided they were union contracts, which is your responsibility to provide. But that's fair, really, they shouldn't be expected to pursue a course of action that's outside their own purview.

If the dues are at all affordable, I'd definitely join, if for no other reason than getting the Trust Fund gigs, which pay scale, but are often for community "arts fairs" and stuff and which can potentially provide great exposure. But if that scene is all tied up (and you might need to schmooze a little bit to get in), then, no, probably not, not until most of the club bands and such are also in, because the amount of undercutting & self-inflicted screwings that goes on out of desperation and such will continue with or without you, so if that's all you got, hey, hold on to it for now and work for a better day.

[Soul Stream]

I'd just chalk it up to paying dues. You'll have all sorts of great stories like this if you keep playing music. My advice it to play the good guy, be amicable and maybe they'll remember you for next year's festival.

[jazzypaul]

I'd just chalk it up to paying dues. You'll have all sorts of great stories like this if you keep playing music. My advice it to play the good guy, be amicable and maybe they'll remember you for next year's festival.

Oh, I know. And I also know that anyone who is that much of a dick will get their's in the end.

[Jazzmoose]

Fuck it, tell him you've got Paul Simon and if he ever wants to see him alive again he will have to drop out of the show and you guys become the new headliners.

Yeah, because if Paul Simon dies, then he'll be the biggest prick in the world!

[catesta]

Fuck it, tell him you've got Paul Simon and if he ever wants to see him alive again he will have to drop out of the show and you guys become the new headliners.

Yeah, because if Paul Simon dies, then he'll be the biggest prick in the world!

He's got the hair for it.

[Man with the Golden Arm]

at least you didn't have to open for this guy!

[AllenLowe]

do you have emails agreeing to the gig? If so, I would go to small claims -

[Dan Gould]

do you have emails agreeing to the gig? If so, I would go to small claims -

Remember this advice comes from the man who has alienated countless gig-giving people.

I'm sure you realize the last thing you need to do is to get a reputation for being difficult, let alone litigious.

[AllenLowe]

"I'm sure you realize the last thing you need to do is to get a reputation for being difficult"

[AllenLowe]

"This Is Lizzie Borden and I am doing this Public Service Announcement for Tool Safety"

[7/4]

do you have emails agreeing to the gig? If so, I would go to small claims -

Remember this advice comes from the man who has alienated countless gig-giving people.

I'm sure you realize the last thing you need to do is to get a reputation for being difficult, let alone litigious.

[AllenLowe]

"This Is Lizzie Borden and I am doing this Public Service Announcement for Tool Safety"

[RDK]

Forget about musicians. Look what happens when board members get pissy!

[jazzypaul]

do you have emails agreeing to the gig? If so, I would go to small claims -

Remember this advice comes from the man who has alienated countless gig-giving people.

I'm sure you realize the last thing you need to do is to get a reputation for being difficult, let alone litigious.

right. Not to mention, a quick peek around will tell you all about my day job, which means that if I pull a stunt like that, it doesn't just reflect on me, it reflects on my place of business. And they ain't be havin' that.

That said, I DO have a confirmation e-mail, and we DID turn down other work to play this thing, so I think I will at least let them know that and see if they have ANY scruples whatsoever.

[AllenLowe]

tell 'em Dan sent you -

[JSngry]

Fine line between establishing yourself as a serious entity (i.e. - one who respects one's self enough will not allow one's self to be fucked over) & getting a reputation as a pissy whiner.

A fine line indeed, but one worth walking. If you have confirmation emails, I think you got some leverage to get something out of the deal. Settling for nothing when you've been promised something is pretty much putting a big FUCK ME, I'M A LOSER sign on and not taking it off...

Negotiate. Be nice, but negotiate until you get something out of them. They are obligated.

[jazzypaul]

Fine line between establishing yourself as a serious entity (i.e. - one who respects one's self enough will not allow one's self to be fucked over) & getting a reputation as a pissy whiner.

A fine line indeed, but one worth walking. If you have confirmation emails, I think you got some leverage to get something out of the deal. Settling for nothing when you've been promised something is pretty much putting a big FUCK ME, I'M A LOSER sign on and not taking it off...

Negotiate. Be nice, but negotiate until you get something out of them. They are obligated.

Talked to them yesterday. I attempted to try to get something out of the deal...especially because we turned down a festival gig that we WOULDN'T have gotten booted from to play this one, and all I got was, "wouldn't it be a waste of money to pay someone that isn't playing?" To which my response was "Well, then put us on the stage!"

So, they wouldn't budge. I want to be a prick about it in return, but I don't know how to do so without making myself look like a whiny little bitch-man.

Here's what I've learned:

1) from here on out, I'm sending out contracts for non-club gigs.

1a) said contract will have some sort of clause that states that if it ain't my fault and we don't play, we get paid anyway.

2) I need a manager/agent pronto. Between writing reviews, being the radio guy, playing, and now writing the occasional set of liner notes, I don't have time for this bullshit.

[AllenLowe]

they sound like a bunch of fuckwads - now where did I hear THAT before?

[AllenLowe]

oh yeah, from that master of diplomacy.......................................................................

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[JSngry]

Fine line between establishing yourself as a serious entity (i.e. - one who respects one's self enough will not allow one's self to be fucked over) & getting a reputation as a pissy whiner.

A fine line indeed, but one worth walking. If you have confirmation emails, I think you got some leverage to get something out of the deal. Settling for nothing when you've been promised something is pretty much putting a big FUCK ME, I'M A LOSER sign on and not taking it off...

Negotiate. Be nice, but negotiate until you get something out of them. They are obligated.

Talked to them yesterday. I attempted to try to get something out of the deal...especially because we turned down a festival gig that we WOULDN'T have gotten booted from to play this one, and all I got was, "wouldn't it be a waste of money to pay someone that isn't playing?" To which my response was "Well, then put us on the stage!"

So, they wouldn't budge. I want to be a prick about it in return, but I don't know how to do so without making myself look like a whiny little bitch-man.

Here's what I've learned:

1) from here on out, I'm sending out contracts for non-club gigs.

1a) said contract will have some sort of clause that states that if it ain't my fault and we don't play, we get paid anyway.

2) I need a manager/agent pronto. Between writing reviews, being the radio guy, playing, and now writing the occasional set of liner notes, I don't have time for this bullshit.

Not a bad idea to get a non-refundable deposit up front. 50% is not at all unreasonable.

If this type circuit is something y'all want to seriously pursue, it might also not be a bad idea to think about Union membership. If it's just going to be an occasional thing, then no, don't bother. But otherwise...

Now, here's the tricky part.

Sounds like you've lost this gig. No getting anything out of it. But that's this gig. Do they have any others at any upcoming point, either as an organization or as individuals? Or might they be able to hook you up with somebody who does? If you've already told them to fuck off, then this is probably no longer an option, but if you haven't...

And it may be that they really are clueless wankers with no sense of business ethics and that you do have to tell them to fuck off. But if/when you do, remember - keep it about the business. If for no other reason than karma, keep the "energy" focused on business, not personality - theirs or yours. Remember - your life has not been ruined, your charachter has not been assassinated, your family has not been destroyed, you simply have not have been delivered goods as promised. Business. You handle yours, they don't.

Easier said than done, to put it mildly but even if you lose this one, it's establishing good psycho-spiritual "work habits" that will serve you well in the future.

Edited July 22, 2008 by JSngry

[jazzypaul]

Jim,

I can't tell you how thankful I am that there are cats like you on this board.

Seriously.

Because of the fact that this is a passionate business in which we are all surrounded by passionate people, it's really, really easy to forget that this IS business, and not personal. And because of that, instead of looking at this as "those fuckers did me wrong," I probably need to be looking at this far more as "alright, I could use the day off anyway!" Especially because my guitarist's wife should be having their baby any day now.

Now, that still doesn't absolve the headlining star/troll under the bridge who got this ball rolling in the first place. I mean, seriously, how does he benefit from us not being on the bill? It's hard for me to look at that portion of it as anything but personal. And some sort of help steering the karmic energy on that one could be useful.

Now that I'm beginning to cool down from this whole thing, I'm learning that there's a whole lot to be learned from this, and I'm learning those lessons. Fair enough.

So, again, thanks for the sage advice. Some of the best I've gotten in a while.

[JSngry]

You're welcome, Paul.

I've been there, believe me, and making business personal (and vice-versa), although something you need to do from time to time, is usually counterproductive. This is a business in which there are all kinds of flakes, geeks, freaks, and thiefs, and at any given moment, any number of them can be either your best friend or your worst nightmare. So you gotta maintain that objectivity to make it work for you from circumstance to circumstance. "Ethics" & "flexibility" are in no way mutually exclusive, dig?

As far as that "star" goes, here's the bottom line - he's a...whatever. You're not. Right now, he's got the juice to cut you out of this gig. You don't. Ask yourself this - would you like to be whatever it is that he is, and would you like to put your juice, when you have it, to the end of keeping other cats down? Probably not. So stay clear of him, because from what I can gather, all he is is a "good player" with a career of clearly defined parameters. Those people are literally a dime a dozen, like Kleenex, and like Kleenex, they are ultimately disposable. One of the big reasons they cop these attitudes is because they know at some level that they are disposable, and this is their "shield" against that. Well hey, they can run, but they can't hide...

In short, you got talent, he got talent, hell, I got talent, all god's chillun' got talent, so let's not anybody act act a fool about it, ok? First ones who do are the ones who don't get that simple truth, and who wants to be on that boat? Sso, there is nothing to gain from this guy except reinforcement of what you don't want to become personally, although it might not hurt to find out who his agent is. If it tuns out that he handles himself, hey, 'nuff said.

Now, once you've completely cooled off & chilled out about this immediate situation, get back to work on getting those asshole "organizers" to somehow give you some kind of gig somewhere. And if/when they do, be their best buddy for the duration of the gig cycle. Because, hey, that is the business, and they do owe you.

[Rooster_Ties]

Now, once you've completely cooled off & chilled out about this immediate situation, get back to work on getting those asshole "organizers" to somehow give you some kind of gig somewhere. And if/when they do, be their best buddy for the duration of the gig cycle. Because, hey, that is the business, and they do owe you.

Yep, that's exactly the thing to do.

Jim nailed it (as he so often does).

[marcello]

There's a old saying:"A contract is only as good as the people that sign it'.

That said, you should have a contract for concerts/festivals.

I always ask for 50% 60 days before the performance date for my clients.

That way there is no last minute bullshit and/or incompetence to deal with.

Oh, and I ask to be paid the balance on arival or before the soundcheck.