Blindfold Test #3 - Discussion

[danasgoodstuff]

I was gonna guess the Zoot Simms bossa nova album for #8 (I've heard it but don't remember too well) BUT I don't think he did that tune...

Jsangry:

OK, at exactly what point in this attentuated analogy do you realize it's not the same old same old, somewhere between the "oo" and the "ah"?

Edited October 25, 2003 by danasgoodstuff

[JSngry]

Jsangry:

OK, at exactly what point in this attentuated analogy do you realize it's not the same old same old, somewhere between the "oo" and the "ah"?

That's the scary part - what if you don't?

But you'd almost have to. Sometime. Somehow.

Doesn't Hollywood make movies about creepy stuff like this?

[Jim R]

I can appreciate both sides on this, but I'm inclined to agree with Mike (VERY well stated, Mike). BTW, that's two people now that were thinking Zoot... ! Okay- that's IT, I'd better shut up.

[danasgoodstuff]

On the authenticity issue: Of course, it's always good to know what the "authentic" sound is...but that doesn't always, or even usually, mean that's what I want to hear. And specifically, isn't even Brazillian bossa nova a bastardization of samba mixed with stuff they pick up from American jazz?

[marcoliv]

ok, i got my copy yesterday and i have listened it 3 times before giving my first impressions.

i´m always very happy and flattered to know that the music from my country inspires so much people throughout the world so first of all, i would like to say a big THANK YOU to Jim for loving brazilian music so deeply.

i really enjoyed your selection Jim!!!

track 1 - of course this is from Orfeu, i´m familiar with this song since i was born but i´m not sure who is the piano player.

track 2 - i love vibes but have no idea who is playing. would love to know.

track 3 - the only thing i´m sure that it´s not Miles

track 4 - this is from another fantastic Brazilian artist Luis Eça but who is playing is a mistery for me

track 5 - no clue at all

track 6 - O Morro Nao Tem Vez...it´s been a while since the last time i´ve hummed this on my mind. Elis Regina & Jair Rodrigues doing this is very very good!! my wife is sure that a quote from Work Song is played there...i need to listen it carefully but it would be very curious for me to imagine Work Song with O Morro Nao Tem Vez

track 7 - no idea

track 8 - "Vai minha tristeza e diz a ela que sem ela nao pode ser". one of the most beautiful songs ever created IMHO. Chega de Saudade and i would say it´s Getz but i don't think Jim would have included if it was him so i´m lost.

the curious thing is about the backing vocals. it reminds me a lot the last band of Jobim "Nova Banda" where 5 girls used to sing beautifully well. i´m quite sure that one of them is singing on this

track 9 - no idea

track 10 - Aquarela do Brasil, the milestone composition of Ary Barroso. who´s the player?

track 11 - no idea

track 12 - bossa nova thing but i´m not sure it´s a genuine brazilian music.

track 13 - I Mean You from Monk. thought about Andy Summers on his Monk tribute but after listening carefully...no idea

track 14 - my first goal!! Sarah Vaughan on her album Copacabana doing Chovendo na Roseira from Jobim. my father played this album a lot in the late 70´s

track 15 - my second goal!!! Dexter Gordon on soprano, Cedar Walton on piano, Billy Higgins on drums, Mads Viding on bass and Palle Mikkelborg on trumpet. from the album "the other side of midnight" this song is Tivoli. I LOVE THIS!!!!!!

track 16 - according to Ron he had some troubles with his copy so he wasn´t able to include it on my disc.

as is my first test, i need to say that it´s very exciting doing this. wonderful idea and a great source of new knowledge too

thank you Jim & Ron for helping me out sending my copy so fast.

now i will read the other posts to check how blind i am in Jazz

peace

Marcus Oliveira

ps: once again sorry for my english mistakes...

Edited October 25, 2003 by marcoliv

[JSngry]

WEll, what I want to know is, does Harry Allen ALWAYS sound like this, or is this his idea of cute or something equally revolting but not nearly as intrinsically evil? Either way, it's wrong, but one is a LOT more vile than the other.

Good thing I got a gig to go to, because I'm about THIS far from unloading on this vampiric stooge of the deepest darkness in a seriously major way. People have been justifiably executed for less...

Edited October 25, 2003 by JSngry

[Noj]

On the authenticity issue: Of course, it's always good to know what the "authentic" sound is...but that doesn't always, or even usually, mean that's what I want to hear. And specifically, isn't even Brazillian bossa nova a bastardization of samba mixed with stuff they pick up from American jazz?

Worse yet, a mongrelization.

No, I think the difference lies specifically between drawing inspiration and complete imitation. There must be a unique personality that shows through, even when paying homage to a predecessor.

[mikeweil]

And specifically, isn't even Brazillian bossa nova a bastardization of samba mixed with stuff they pick up from American jazz?

That depends on how you look at the evolution of bossa nova. At least some of its prime architects, Joao Gilberto, Antonio Carlos Jobim and Luiz Bonfa, had nothing or very little to do with jazz, Jobim may have known some, but I think it is a common misconception to see bossa nova as a mixture of samba and cool jazz. It is rather a development of the samba cancao and can be explained without any jazz influence. Clare Fischer once explained in a French TV documentary on Bossa Nova how Jbim developped his chord changes from Frederic Chopin's music - he had classical training (but wasan architect before he went professional). There was a group of Brazilian musicians that played jazz, but they were leaning more towards hard bop - it is no accident Herbie Mann recorded Clifford Brown's "Blues Walk" with Sergio Mendes' Bossa Rio Sextet. I don not hear very much jazz in Joao Gilberto's classic bossa nova recordings - Brazilian producers hated improvisation on records, that's why these little ditties always clock in under two minutes - and there were other traditions of improvisation in Brazil for horn players to draw upon, like choro - that's were Paulo Moura comes from.

Jazz listeners tend to interpret forms of improvisation that sound similar to jazz as jazz influence, but in fact they were developments of Afro-American music applying similar or identical methods to differing ingredients. If you take musical forms in the Americas ca. 1900 and compare early New Orleans Jazz and North American Blues to Dominican Meringue, Beguines from Martinique, Cuban Danzon or Son, Brazilian Choro etc. you will find many common traits, but these styles developped more or less independently before jazz was spread through sound recordings.

The common traits are the reason, or rather the precondition that jazz can be mixed with them that easily, but if you take a closer look there are subtle differences.

[marcoliv]

well said mike

Villa- Lobos was his teacher on piano

Marcus Oliveira

Edited October 25, 2003 by marcoliv

[mikeweil]

Villa- Lobos was his teacher on piano

So the great Heitor Villa-Lobos himself - what a privilege. If we look at classical music: Much of the music of Villa-Lobos, Alberto Ginastera, Amadeo Roldan, Alejandro Caturla etc. is seen as being influenced by Strawinsky, but I'd rather say hearing Stravinsky's music encouraged them on a way similar to his that they already had in mind. Debussy and Satie heard Stravinsky in Paris, and it impressed them immensly, made them go on in their own direction, but noone would say they were "influenced", but they were in a sense, but sound different. Same goes for the so-called "jazz influence".

[danasgoodstuff]

Mike,

Thanx for the elucidation, I hope I didn't sound too flippant with my question. Nonetheless I think authenticity is always a difficult issue, or nonissue.

[mikeweil]

Nonetheless I think authenticity is always a difficult issue, or nonissue.

Always at your service ...

My experience is that

1) striving for authenticity is very important

2) because on the way you learn what you can do or reach and what not

3) that helps in finding your own thing

e.g. it was very important for me to study Mongo Santamaria's playing and trying to exactly play like him, I learned so much on the way and had to admit I couldn't do it. But it also gave me an idea of the directions I could take.

In the end, the only authenticity possible is to be true to yourself. If that means trying to play exactly like someone else without any malice, it's okay with me ...

Edited October 26, 2003 by mikeweil

[Jim R]

Villa- Lobos was his teacher on piano

Interesting... I know that Villa-Lobos was a great influence on Jobim, but the biographical volume included in the "Cancioneiro" set does not mention any formal training of Jobim by Villa-Lobos. The teachers that are mentioned are Hans Joachim Koellreutter (a German); composer/conductor Paulo Silva (whom Villa-Lobos admired); Tomas Gutierrez de Teran (a Spanish pianist who was invited to Brazil by Villa-Lobos); and Lucia Branco. Apparently Jobim met Villa-Lobos in 1956, but nothing is said about any formal instruction...

[Dan Gould]

Well, I think I know where the big argument's going to come in the answers thread ... and I think I need to listen closer to this "vampiric stooge" performance!

Edited October 26, 2003 by Dan Gould

[JSngry]

There will be no argument. What Harry Allen does on this cut is so deeply and fundamentally offensive to everything that I believe in as a human in general and as a musician in particular that I will be unable to discuss it in anything even remotely resembling a civil or "reasonable" tone, so I will refrain from saying anymore than I am going to say here. Hopefully.

I don't expect anybody else to understand where I'm coming from about this, not the depth of my feeling on this matter, nor do I want to be perceieved as attacking anybody who doesn't and/or finds the performance harmless. After all, it IS a personal offense that I feel. Strictly. I neither expect nor desire for my personal morailty about life/music to hold for everybody, or even ANYBODY else. That would be obscenely wrong in so many ways, as obscenely wrong as I feel that Harry Allen is here.

I'll just say this and quit - Eric Alexander's strong George Coleman influence merely bugs me. But I totally understand it, and actually sympathize with him. Really, I do. Thank God he DOESN'T get it exactly right! That means he's still got something of his own inside himself that he's trying to find, to get to, to nurture. God bless him on his way, because it don't come easy for ANYBODY, outward appearances to the contrary. But if this performance is indicative of how ALL of Harry Allen's work sounds, he is unequivocally evil. Purely and simply evil. Forget about Marilyn Manson and all that cartoon stuff. This is TRUE evil in action right here. If he's just doing this for this "tribute" album, well, then he's not purely evil, but he's got more in him than I care to think about. But that's his business. Just keep him away from me. Permanently. Totally. If you don't believe in evil, cool. But I do, and this is it. On the grand scale of evil that has occured in the history of the world, this one won't even register. Of course not. But that doesn't alter what it is.

As serious as your life? Damn straight it is.

Let the laughter begin. But that is how I feel, put extremely politely and briefly.

[marcoliv]

Jim,

i´m saying that based on an interview from Antonio Carlos Jobim 2 or 3 years before his death. he was saying how Villa-Lobos influenced his conception of music & etc

he also told a story that on one of his classes at Villa-Lobos place, some of Villa´s grandchilds were running all over the place and Tom couldn´t concentrate himself on his lesson.

when he asked Villa how could he focused on the music with all that noise around, he replied to him "my dear student, all humans have internal & external ears, so if you can´t do your music with your internal ears, i will be no longer your teacher!"

Tom remembered that as one of his greatest music lessons

peace

Marcus Oliveira

Edited October 26, 2003 by marcoliv

[Tom Storer]

Jim S,

Wow. Fundamentally offensive? Obscenely wrong? Purely and simply EVIL? Because he's a copycat saxophone player? Man, you set the bar way high!

But hey, that's your right. Far be it from me etc. Tolerance and all that. Peace, brother!

[A Lark Ascending]

But if this performance is indicative of how ALL of Harry Allen's work sounds, he is unequivocally evil. Purely and simply evil. Forget about Marilyn Manson and all that cartoon stuff. This is TRUE evil in action right here.

Hmm!

First we had Bin Laden.

Then Sadaam.

North Korea, Syria and Iran are all implicated.

But now be very afraid.

It would appear the 'Axis of Evil' has been joined by Harry Allen.

What worries me is that I have two Harry Allen CDs and though I'd never make any great claims for him I really like one of them!

So where does that place me and everyone else who has Allen CDs? To say nothing of all those musicians who play with him. The enemy within?

I will go to bed tonight in the knowledge that the world is even more terrifying than I thought it when I awoke this morning. And I might be part of the problem!

[One of those smiley things denoting the position of my tongue at present!]

[JSngry]

nor do I want to be perceieved as attacking anybody who doesn't and/or finds the performance harmless. After all, it IS a personal offense that I feel. Strictly.

...

[connoisseur series500]

I understand what Jim Sangrey's talking about. I wouldn't quite use the same words, but that's Jim.

Hey Man, there's got to be artisitc integrity. What was that "unpardonable sin" that Nathaniel Hawthorne was talking about in his short story? Well....

I forgot!! But I think it was something about being honest and true to yourself. Your whole life can't be a lie.

Jim aint far off in his comments, folks.

Edited October 26, 2003 by connoisseur series500

[A Lark Ascending]

I'm not big on moral absolutes but I was under the impression that 'evil' was something that could not be limited to the personal.

If that's not the case then can I take this opportunity to denounce the Great Satan, the Horn-ed One, the Beast of Newcastle...STING!!!!

That feels better!

Apologies. My theology is extremely dodgy.

Edited October 26, 2003 by Bev Stapleton

[connoisseur series500]

If that's not the case then can I take this opportunity to denounce the Great Satan, the Horn-ed One, the Beast of Newcastle...STING!!!!

[Jim R]

Jim,

i´m saying that based on an interview from Antonio Carlos Jobim 2 or 3 years before his death. he was saying how Villa-Lobos influenced his conception of music & etc

he also told a story that on one of his classes at Villa-Lobos place, some of Villa´s grandchilds were running all over the place and Tom couldn´t concentrate himself on his lesson.

when he asked Villa how could he focused on the music with all that noise around, he replied to him "my dear student, all humans have internal & external ears, so if you can´t do your music with your internal ears, i will be no longer your teacher!"

Tom remembered that as one of his greatest music lessons

peace

Marcus Oliveira

Marcus,

Thank you for elaborating. I don't doubt you, but just wanted to point out what I had read in the biographical volume of the Cancioneiro, which Tom and Paulo assembled. I'm not sure why they wouldn't have made it more clear that Tom had had formal training under Villa. The suggestion in the book is that there was a (strong) influence (beginning quite early in Tom's life), but not extensive formalized instruction. The anecdote about Villa's noisy environment was mentioned, but in reference to an unplanned visit Tom made to Villa's residence. Ah well, if only I could read portuguese, I might see the details more clearly. The Cancioneiro contains only limited passages in english...

Thanks again,

Jim

[Jim R]

...if this performance is indicative of how ALL of Harry Allen's work sounds, he is unequivocally evil. Purely and simply evil. Forget about Marilyn Manson and all that cartoon stuff. This is TRUE evil in action right here. If he's just doing this for this "tribute" album, well, then he's not purely evil, but he's got more in him than I care to think about. But that's his business. Just keep him away from me. Permanently. Totally.

...Let the laughter begin. But that is how I feel, put extremely politely and briefly.

Jim, have you read anything online (AMG bio, while you were there, for example) about Allen? My impression at this point is that he did indeed adopt the Getz sound on this CD only. Why, I don't know. I don't necessarily hear the "exactness" of sound and style that some of you do (and apparently a few others agree, such as Mike Weil, and the gentlemen who thought it sounded like Zoot), but it's pretty clear that he went into Stan's zone pretty deeply (part of me wonders how many tenor players could avoid that zone completely on a bossa session like this, though... at least from a style/phrasing standpoint... the tonality aspect is something else altogether). At any rate, I have Allen's Ellington tribute (with Bill Charlap and the Washingtons). Nice recording. Very nice, IMO. No Stan Getz impression...

Just went to AMG to refresh my memory on Allen's bio. A little sidenote... I did a search for "Harry Allen", and two Harry Allens came up at the top of the results list:

Harry Allen (our hero) - "Jazz" - 1980's / 1990's

Harry Allen (not our hero) - "Rap" - 1920's

You gotta love AMG.

FWIW, here's an excerpt from Dave Nathan's bio on Allen:

Fathers serious about seeing their sons one day becoming famous athletes begin developing their offspring's skills at a very young age. In the case of Harry Allen's father, who was a big band drummer, he played jazz records each day for Harry before he went off to kindergarten. Starting off with accordion lessons, there was a fortuitous switch to saxophone a few years later. Attending Rutgers University, Allen studied saxophone with Sahib Shibab, Bob Mintzer, and John Purcell. In 1989, he graduated from Rutgers with a degree in jazz tenor saxophone. While at Rutgers, Allen got his first gig with the help of master bass player Major Wholley (um, that would be Holley, Dave) where he replaced Zoot Sims at a studio recording with John Bunch, George Masso, Bucky Pizzarelli, and Ruby Braff. During the session, Dizzy Gillespie dropped by. Quite heady company for a young tenor player doing his first recording. Wholley (um, that would be Holley, Dave) also led Allen to Oliver Jackson, who Allen subsequently accompanied on several tours to Europe. A 1986 session with Kenny Barron was Allen's first recording date. After that, Allen had 19 recordings to his name for such labels as Progressive, Audiophile, and Nagel-Heyer. Later, his recordings were with major label RCA-Victor. Three of his discs have been awarded a Gold Disc by Swing Journal Magazine and his CD, Tenors Anyone, won both the Gold Disc and New Star awards. He has recorded as a sideman with Bucky Pizzarelli (with whom he performs quite frequently), Warren Vache, and Jeff Hamilton. Allen's musical inspiration and interpretive approach come from the giants and innovators of mainstream saxophone, including Coleman Hawkins, Ben Webster, Stan Getz, Illinois Jacquet, and Lester Young.

BTW, Jim, I ain't going to laugh at anything you post unless it's a gag. B)

[Dan Gould]

Jim S.,

Here's what I don't understand:

Is it possibly the case that Allen's playing is so offensive mostly because you've been exposed to it in the context of a blindfold test? I mean, what if you had seen this as a tribute CD, or if Allen says in the liners that this is his tribute to Getz (the AMG review isn't clear), would you say, wow, he really sounds like Getz, its unbelievable. I wish he'd done these tunes his own way, but its meant to recall Getz, so ... uncool but not evil?

Isn't imitation the sincerest form of flattery, especially if its obvious you are doing a tribute to the subject?

I think its fair to say that Allen does not imitate Getz on everything he does, its just on this CD of Brazilian tunes. If he made his living imitating Getz exclusively, than I'd understand Jim's reaction.

Now, what of someone like Dick Hyman? I've heard that he can imitate just about any pianist in jazz history. AMG's bio tells us that:

A very versatile virtuoso, Dick Hyman once recorded an album on which he played "A Child Is Born" in the styles of 11 different pianists, from Scott Joplin to Cecil Taylor.

Is Hyman evil?

Does he get a pass because he can do it to so many different pianists and not just one?

Or is it possible that you are especially disturbed because its a saxophonist and cuts closest to your musical heart, Jim?

Sorry for getting into this, I realize you probably want to leave your comments as they are-don't want you to go medieval on me, buddy! But you should realize that the powerful nature of your feelings make people want to understand them better.