Blindfold Test #3 - Discussion

[A Lark Ascending]

Just got this today...thanks Gary...and am playing it now. Very nice.

The one which jumps out for me is track 4...I think JSngry's right. Sounds very much like Louis Stewart to me!

[mikeweil]

A very nice blindfold test!!! Thanks a lot!

What delights me is that there is an organissimo forums member with a distinct liking for jazz with a Brazilian flavor, 'cause half of the tracks were composed or played by Brazilians!

Track 1: A smile of recognition was on my face after the first two bars: Vince Guaraldi, Monty Budwig and Colin Bailey playing their jazzy version of Luiz Bonfa's "Samba de Orfeu". This album always appeared to me as one of the more successful jazz versions of this tune, no wonder as Guaraldi was expert at Brazilian as well as Cuban music. I always enjoyed his playing with Cal Tjader's groups, and love his drummerless trios with Eddie Duran and Dean Reilly.

Track 2: The vibraphone sound, which is the only one I know of that makes the sound bars sound like metal, not like glass as with most players, tells me this is Lem Winchester. Great talent who was on the scene for only 1 1/2 years, cutting ten fine sessions for Prestige. (There was a thread here on him recently.) Although I don't yet have it, this should be from "With Feeling", with Richard Wyands (who melts his own nice mixture of Red Garland and Tommy Flanagan in his solo - never heard these influences that clearly!), George Duvivier and Roy Haynes - they play a little more restrained than usual 'cuase it's a Moodsville album. I just assembled a Lem Winchester discography on my computer, much to my advantage here ... He was a inestimable loss for the jazz vibes, I always enjoyed his solos, he had a unique conception of the blues.

Track 3: This has a vibe similar to that of the Miles Davis Quintet of the late 1950's, but the trumpeter definitely is not Miles. The tenor is Clifford Jordan, that laconic sound (that's what one critic fittingly called it) and certain phrases, and I'd say Wynton Kelly is on piano. Can't say more without using discographies, so I'll quit here. I like this one! Nice way the drummer sticks close to the beat, but can't tell who he is.

Track 4: I like the bass player's beat, one of the few times where a pickup is of advantage to get this rhythmic attack across. I'd say it is the same guitarist overdubbing, or the second would have got a solo, their sound is similar. Don't know who it is, but the tune is "The Dolphin" by Brazilian pianist Luiz Eca (with "c" pronounced like "s"), whose virtuosity easily rivals that of the best jazz pianists. The original recording of the Tamba Four was played at half that tempo, which allows the beauty of the melody to unfold much better. This guitarist was probably more interested in the very well constructed chord changes of that tune, he plays nicely, but I would like to hear him play a ballad to tell if I really like him. This is a tune for the Brazilian repertoire of my band, thanks for reminding me of it!

Track 5: I'm not sure about that tenor player, he reminded me a little of Stanley Turrentine's debut LP on Time, but that is not Stanley. Sounds a little like Barney Wilen as well, but ... the rhythm section is probably Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers and Jimmy Cobb. Would like to hear more of this cat.

Track 6: This is Tom Jobim's tune "O Morro" or "The Hill". The bassist has a great beat. I would say this is not a Latin pianist. (Oh my sakes when I'm wrong...) I like the bassist more than the pianist, I don't like it when they inflect too much blusiness or standard licks into a Brazilian tune, the style gets lost too easily with chord substitutions or if you take too many liberties with the rhythmic structure of the tune. Well, it's a matter of taste. Won't risk dropping names with this one, but would like to know who they are.

Track 7: I think I have a vocal version of that tune somewhere, but can't recall the title or the singer. Nice lyrical pianist, ditto guitar player, but don't recognize either. I'm not a guitar lover, although I end up playing with them all the time!

Track 8: That's great. The tenor has almost the tone of Getz, but plays more on the beat. The arrangement is the way I like it, with the tenor-vocal unisons and that contrapuntal impro of tenor and guitar. The drummer sounds like a Brazilian to me, pianist too. These guys understood the characteristic of Brazilian rhythm very well and don't mess with the rhythmical intricacies of the tune - Jobim's "Chega de Saudade". I'd buy that for sure! *****

Track 9: Again very nice, would buy that too! Alto sounds like Sonny Red Kyner to me, didn't he do an album for Riverside or Jazzland with a 3-sax frontline? Not sure about the tenor, Junior Cook? I'd say the baritone is Charles Davis, the light tone of Cecil Payne with the rhapsodic wails of Serge Chaloff, one of the underrated masters of that horn. Why aren't there more records with three or four saxes like that, it's such a great sound! Very good arrangement. A ***** record for me. Rhythm guys sound familiar, Lex Humphries on drums? I dig the way he plays that break on the snare before the closing theme.

Track 10: Jim likes guitars, that's for sure. That's the old Brazilian warhorse, "Brazil". Not quite my cup of tea, but well done. He knows what he does.

Track 11: I think I know that pianist, but again can't tell. Again a very good duet.

Track 12: Grant Green is the guitarist, I'm sure. That combination of tenor, Grant Green, bossa nova rhythms and a cabasa in the rhythm section smells like one of Alfred Lion's strange excursions into Latin jazz fields. But the tenor does not sound like Quebec or Rouse, which Lion produced, but it's that formula. He has some Dexter Gordon touches. That pianist sure is funky! They cook very nicely, this is getting better than the Blue Note bossas.

Track 13: "I Mean You" by Monk and Hawkins. I like the drummer best on this track, he cooks very nicely with a light touch. My experience with Monk tunes is not to mess with the rhythmic or chordal structure in any way, but this guitarist probably plays it from memory, 'cause the starts the main thematic phrase in bar five on "one" instead of the last eighth note of the previous bar - anticipated down beats are a very important part of this tune! He makes the same error with the first note of the introductory phrase. This abberation lessens the rhythmic momentum the tune. Otherwise this guitarist has a nice attack. But don't mess with Monk's tunes, please!

Track 14: This sounds like Sarah Vaughan's take on Jobim's "Double Rainbow". Nicely done, but apart from the very early recordings and her late album "Crazy and mixed up" she never really got to me.

Track 15: This is Dexter Gordon playing soprano sax, a complete tranistion of his tenor style to soprano. It's a pity he didn't record more on the instrument. This was on one of the two "Round Midnight" soundtrack albums, Freddie Hubbard, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter and Billy Higgins are on that track if my memory serves me right.

Track 16: "The Good Life". Have no idea who this is. Again a very beautiful way to end the Test, just like the previous ones. I would like to hear more of this record. I'm not too well informed in these maintream piano and guitar stylings.

Thanks for the compilation, there are some great finds among them for me!

And now, Ladies and Gentlemen, again: It's off to reading the others' answers!

[mikeweil]

if someone were to make a blindfold tape of stuff from my own collection, I probably wouldn't be able to identify half of it!!

[mikeweil]

Well, I thought we agreed on posting our guesses before taking a look at AMG's pages .... B)

Benny Golson on track 5 sounds plausible to me. Heard him with the Messengers and on one or two Prestige Lps and was not moved that much, this is more to my liking.

Eddie Who? One of my favourites - have almost all of his Atlantic stuff, but the VeeJay and Columbia albums I don't know that much. A relisten confirms it. Didn't know he did a bossa album. Jimmy Raney !!! a much harder attack than I'm used to from him. Lalo Schifrin - a man of many surprising traits. There is an album on Fresg Sound or Blue Moon with some of his early stuff (not all recorded under his name) that really kicks. Makes me wish for a Eddie Harris VeeJay Mosaic!!!

Frank Strozier et al. on track 9? If this is correct, the Milestone CD moves up to the top five on my purchase list!!!

These tenors always get me. I get mad when I don't recognize one of my favourites like Eddie Harris

[JSngry]

Ahmad Jamal.

[JSngry]

For the last cut, that is.

[connoisseur series500]

Well, I thought we agreed on posting our guesses before taking a look at AMG's pages .... B)

Damn, Mike. Your analysis of the blindfold cd easily stands out as the most impressive so far.

You know your shit! B)

And, of course, you are also the only one besides myself who knew the name of track 6 "O Morro..."

I bet if someone compiled a blindfold tape of your collection, you'd rattle off all the names. I couldn't even recognize the tape I played last week!

[Jim R]

Damn, Mike. Your analysis of the blindfold cd easily stands out as the most impressive so far.

Hmmm.... Yeah, just "Hmmm". I'll have to leave it at that!

[connoisseur series500]

Whether he is correct or not on his guesses, that's some impressive jazz erudition in my book, Jim.

[JSngry]

Well, I thought we agreed on posting our guesses before taking a look at AMG's pages .... B)

Consolodation of steps, my friend. It's the smart choice for business!

Seriously, this test was one that I felt pretty good about on most cuts, so, in a concerted effort to postpone tackling the laundry, here's a track-track analysis of how and why I did what I did.

#1 - Read the previous posts to mine, before even hearing the cut, heard it, and knew that they were correct.

#2 - Knew it was a Van Gelder recording from the piano sound, figured it was a Lem Winchester Prestige date (a REALLY strong hunch), went to AMG and found a song title that fit the melody and went with that. Would have guessed Winchester anyway, but got a kick out of going for the exact tune. Still don't know if it's a good call or not though.

#3 - Knew the session from note one, since I have the album somewhere. Didn't bother w/AMG because I know who/what it is, and getting the specifics would have been redundant in my mind, at least for me.

#4 - Kowing that Jim is a big advocate of Louis Stewart, I figured there'd be a cut by him on here somewhere, and this sounded like the type of player I mentally concieve Stewart being, although I'd not heard him before. Recognizing the tune, I just looked to see at AMG if there was a version of this tune by this artist, and sure enough, there was. It's still a guess, though, and might be wrong.

#5 - The Golson call was near-automatic, so going to AMG was merely to nail down the specific cut. Which, as it turns out, was better done by Joe than me! But, yeah, I'd have had no other call but Golson for this one.

#6 - Still don't know who it is! But I'm liking Joe's call on Pattitucci, and therefore, Rubalcaba. But AMD is of no assistance here, even after having learned that the tune is AKA "Favela". So I'm SOL on this one.

#7 - I'm still liking Hall, but no help from AMG here. His discography is immense, and I still haven't felt like going through it all. But the Raney suggestion is intriguing. I don't know his work all that well, but on what of it I do, the done is just a little "dirtier" than that heard hear, but JUST a little. But that's mostly the older stuff, so...

#8 - Still a maystery to me, no help from AMG here either. I'm still thinking Getz becasue the tone is too close for comfort. He does play more on top of the beat than Getz usually does, but I've heard a fired-up Getz play like this, so I can't rule him out on those grounds alone. But w/not listing of a Getz performance of this tune that matches this arrangement, I'm at a loss. Whoever the tenor player is, if it's not Getz, he/she scares me by being able to come THAT close to all the little nuances - it ain't natural to copy somebody THAT much!

#9 - Recognized Coleman instantly, figured that Strozier was a likely altoist due to the age of the recording and knowing that there was an informal "Memphis Mafia" in those days. Besides, it just SOUNDS like Strozier. Picked up on Pat Patrick fair & square, and just used AMG to find an album that matched, and there it was. But this one I nailed the front line on pretty easily. Pretty individualistic players all around, if you know their playing.

#10 - Recognized the tune immediately, ruled out Breau, and, yeah, cheated by going to the AMG song listing. But it wasn't a difficult choice at all. When I saw Kessell had done this tune, I said, "GOTTA be him" because of the tone and overall virtuosity. Ain't but a handfull of jazz players who could pull off a performance like this technically. Looks as if the guess was correct, again, thanks to Joe.

#11 - Still clueless. But reading Jim's recent raves about Eddie Higgins, this sounds like it could be him. rooted in Wynton Kelly's overall feel and concept, but more open harmonically. But that's just a guess.

#12 - No brainer for me. Eddie stands out to me no matter what the context. Just used AMG to find the album.

#13 - Ok, cheated w/AMG on this one. Knew the tune, looked for a guitarist-led date. Not to hard to find. Would have guess none of the players.

#14 - Looked for the obvious "Sarah/Double Rainbow" match on AMG and didn't find it, so I listened closer, heard the flaws in the vocal, and decided it was somebody else. But who? Well, DUH - always trust your ears, and look for extended tune listings on ALL MUSIC GUIDE DOT COM I must say though, taht I'm a huge Sarah Vaughn fan, but this cut doesn't do it for me at all, for the reasons I first stated, and knowing that it really IS Sarah doesn't change that in any way.

#15 - GOT to be Dexter. Knew it as soon as I listened to the music rather than the instrument. Tom Storer, your information after the fact made me very happy!

#16 - Knew the tune & it sounded so much like later Red, I looked at AMG for a match. Not finding one, but seeing Jamal listed, I thought that he might be a possibility, but wasn't sure at the time. Red COULD play all those flourishes, but seldom did, and the musical connection between him and Jamal is well doicumented. But I could not imagine Jamal using a bassist who played so out of tune. THAT threw me. But having listened further, I'll commit to him. Ahmad Jamal, from THIS ALBUM.

[mmilovan]

I've just recieved my disc, and I am in the process of listening it carefully. Thanks for sending it!

While not capable of bringing the whole list yet, my strongest oppinion on track 2 - it is definitely not Bags nor Hamp.

It sounds like Terry Gibbs with George Shearing type of playing block chords, but probably I am wrong on that one.

[mikeweil]

I bet if someone compiled a blindfold tape of your collection, you'd rattle off all the names.  I couldn't even recognize the tape I played last week! 

I certainly would have done that ten years ago, but in recent years, with too many new purchases that I didn't listen to as thoroughly as I used to, I'm not so sure.

I have that reputation among my friends and the musicians I play with, however: Once one of my drum students wanted to fool me at a party, asking me if I could find any LP on the spot. I said yes, and me named Kenny Dorham's "Quiet Kenny", which I only had on CD, and broke down when I went straight to the CD bin ...

There was a track from an Eastern Rebellion CD that I have and love on the first Blindfold Test, which I didn't recognize, although it sounded familiar, at least. Something like this really bugs me, so I took my time with the new one, but still I didn't recognize Strozier, although I helped compile the Strozier disco on Noal Cohen's website - but to my excuse I hadn't heard that album. Will get it for sure, I dig saxophone section writing like this. And it bugs me that I didn't recognize Eddie Harris, 'cause he's one of my favourites, although I'm not familiar with all of his early VeeJay and Columbia albums.

I played some tracks to a jazz guitar player with whom I had a TV gig in Brussels last night, I'm just back from the road, in time for breakfast, sleepy-eyed. He said it's definitely Jim Hall on track 7, and Barney Kessel on the solo guitar.

And I'm just as puzzled as Jim about that Getz clone on track 8. I can't imagine Getz playing such a unison passage with a vocalist, he certainly could have handled it, but that was not his way.

Edited October 24, 2003 by mikeweil

[mikeweil]

Consolidation of steps, my friend. It's the smart choice for business!

I have to admit I took a look at the Vince Guaraldi CD to confirm, but I was 100% sure about that anyway.

Looked at the disco for the Winchester, he did only two other quartet sessions, the live recording at Newport 1958, which I just recently bought - it ain't that one - and the one with Ramsey Lewis on Argo that I don't know but find unlikely.

The Dexter I knew right away - they faded some tracks because they didn't need more music for the soundtrack.

I'm curious about some of the pianists - this is not the stuff I usually got out and buy!

[desertblues]

I guess I'm gonna have to check out some Lem Winchester! Reading everyone's guesses & comments is veerrrrry interesting! Can't wait to see the answers...

B)

[JazzAddict]

Thank you Jim for putting together this blindfold test. I'm really enjoying the opportunity to hear some great music that I might not otherwise be exposed to. I've had the disc for a few days now and jotted down some notes yesterday.

1. This track has a nice bass melody and I dig the percussion. However, there something about the melody or the pianist that's a little irritating. 2.5 stars.

2. Melody has a similar feel and character as track 1. I like the vibe player. They have a nice rich sound. Could the pianist be the same player as track 1? 2.5 stars.

3. This is nice. The trumpeter and tenor saxophonist sound familiar..... no one's name is coming to mind....I should now this, probably have a few recordings of each. I can definitely hear the Miles influence on the trumpeter in his idea's, phrasing, and sound. But I think it's a cat who came after Wallace Roney. 3.5 stars.

4. Interesting bass line. Drummer has nice groove going. Is the answering guitar an overdub or another player? 2.5 stars.

5. The tenor is influenced by Getz (sound wise), but also has his own voice. 3.0 stars.

6. Another nice groove between the bass and piano. The bass player is extremely forcefull when plucking the strings (or maybe he/she is over miked). 3.5 stars.

7. Nice relaxing ballad. 3.0 stars.

8. STAN GETZ. I liked everything about this track except for the unison lines between the voices and sax. I don't think the voices were used very well and actually weakened the song instead of adding to it. I have nothing against voices when used well, but this was not the case here. Nice guitar solo and good overall groove. 3.5 stars.

9. Sax ensemble with rhythm section. I like the instrumentation. I get the feeling that this was recorded by some college students. The first alto solo is a bit cut and dry. The player's tone is a little pinched also. It's nice to hear a bari sax solo. 2.5 stars.

10. This didn't do anything for me. 2.0 stars.

11. Not bad. 3.0 stars.

12. Another track with guitar. Enjoyable, but nothing special. 3.0 stars.

13. 2.0 stars.

14. I really liked this track, it has a haunting quality to it. The use of 2 guitars was nice, but it's the vocalist that catches my attention. I must admit that I've never heard a female vocalist with such a deep (low) voice. She could almost be a baritone her voice is so low. What stikes me more, however, is that she has a wonderfully rich and silky smooth voice which I really like. 4.0 stars.

15. DEXTER GORDON on soprano saxophone. I believe the tune is "Tivoli" from The Other Side Of Round Midnight. 'Nuff said. 3.5 stars.

16. Nice piano trio to end the disc. I know this song, it's very familiar, but I can't think of the name. 4.0 stars.

Well, that's it for now.

[jacknife]

As I figured, I really have no idea who plays on these tracks I must say that I do enjoy this disc emensely, thanks Jim! I can't wait to find out who is on here. The one tune that stands out here for me is track #6, I absolutely love the interaction of the piano and bass on this one. Once it's revealed who this is, I will be in search of the album unless I already have it

[JazzAddict]

Just gave "The Other Side of Round Midnight" a spin. I don't think I've listened to this disc in over 10 years. The music on this disc is much better than I remember. Thanks Jim for including the Dexter track on your blindfold disc.

I've also enjoyed reading everyone's comments thus far. I'm a little surprised that some people are doubting track 8 is Stan Getz. Although I don't believe I own a recording of this, if the saxophonist is NOT Stan Getz, then he/she is an exact clone of him. The sound, phrasing, inflections, idea's are all Stan's. I have a feeling this is from one of his more "commercial" albums due to the inclusion of voices on this particular track.

[JSngry]

I'm a little surprised that some people are doubting track 8 is Stan Getz. Although I don't believe I own a recording of this, if the saxophonist is NOT Stan Getz, then he/she is an exact clone of him. The sound, phrasing, inflections, idea's are all Stan's.

I'm with you on all of this, but apparently this IS a Getz clone, and I believe I have identified him.

No More Calls, Please, We Have A Winner???

I suppose that since Getz is dead, and this cat sounds EXACTLY like him, that we should accept the fact that......

Getz is still dead....

[couw]

looks a good tip to me sherlock!

the 9 month pregnant singer is .... intruiging....

[mikeweil]

Bingo, it seems, Mr. Sangrey!!!

I'm relieved that ....

[JSngry]

the 9 month pregnant singer is .... intruiging....

Indeed. Perhaps the cloning of Getz is just the tip of the iceberg...

[A Lark Ascending]

I bought a Louis Stewart CD today after hearing track 4...the first I've bought in 20 years!

It's going to be strange if track 4 is someone else!

[mmilovan]

Man, the guy is clone, I really can not believe my ears.

He copied everything, breath, tone, phrasing, choice of notes...

It is too much for me.

[mikeweil]

I have to admit I like that "Getz clone". He has one advantage: almost 40 years of experience of fusing jazz with Brazilian music, which Getz couldn't have. Getz never had a drummer that much cookin' on any of his bossa nova records, it was played cool then, but that new one is as hot as some samba dancers. Rhythmically, I found these Getz records much too restrained and cool. And I like that he's rhythmically more accurate with the theme. Brazilian music is much closer to specific rhythmic patterns, and if you take too many jazzy liberties, it moves away from its core pretty fast, which is okay from a jazz point of view, but unauthentic from a Brazilian point of view. Maybe I'm a little picky with these things since I've played Jobim with musicians from both parties and find the Brazilian much more exiting and grooving, rhythmically. When Getz played his first bossa nova, he had no idea about the music, and for my ears it shows, although his natural affinity for the music and the way he adapted to it are marvellous. Once you know the "precision" of authentic Brazilian grooves, too many jazz interpretations of it sound a little sloppy.

I'm gonna get me that disc. I like both Getz and this, as much as I like both Lester Young AND Paul Quinichette. If we wouldn't know about Getz for some reason, this "clone" would sound fantastic to our ears, and if we're honest we must admit it's a damn hard thing to do to come that close. But I hear his own conception as well, I was skeptical form the first bars because he is rhythmically so much more accurate with the theme than Getz. I think it is a brilliant idea to incorporate that guitar/sax duet, a nice sidewink at the Getz/Raney connection. I like it a lot!

[JSngry]

I dunno man. It's kinda like some wacko chick wants your stuff so badly that she goes off and has years of plastic surgery to perfectly duplicate your wife and spends those same years learning her life history and how to perfectly duplicate her every mannerism. Then one day, your wife goes out to the mall, this psycho kidnaps her, puts her clothes on, comes into you house, fucks your brains out for a month or two, leaves, goes back to your wife gives her her stuff back, and goes away, never to be heard from again. Or maybe she kills your wife, moves in, and takes over. What happens when you inevitably realize that it's not really your wife?

So, are you supposed to feel good about enjoying having your brains fucked out by a total stranger when you think it's your wife? And how messed up is somebody to go to all that trouble to be that perfect an imitation of somebody else? (and that's the REAL issue I have here)

I mean, I enjoyed the piece for the same reason you did, Mike, but you gotta admit, there's something really perverse about somebody sounding THAT much like Getz (and fwiw, I never had a problem differentiating the Prez from the Vice-Prez). It's a mindfuck fersure, and although some mindfucks are good for you, I'm not so sure about this one. I'm not adulterous by nature, and this one seems to be aiming in that direction...

Edited October 25, 2003 by JSngry