Verve Records

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Charlie Parker

Dizzy Gillespie

Count Basie

Stan Getz

Roy Eldridge

Coleman Hawkins

Illinois Jacquet

Lester Young

Ben Webster

Billie Holiday

Ella Fitzgerald

Sonny Stitt

Johnny Hodges

Duke Elington

Oscar Peterson

Bud Powell

Louis Armstrong

Teddy Wilson

Art Tatum

Harry Edison

Lionel Hampton

Lee Konitz

Gene Krupa

Stuff Smith

Gerry Mulligan

John Lewis

Kid Ory

Red Allen

on the other hand

Junior Mance

Flip Phillips

Ruby Braff

Buddy de Franco

Joe Sullivan

Ralph Sutton

All of these performers recorded for Verve in the fifties. I may have missed a few but this is the bulk of Verve's jazz catalogue from that period. What strikes me immediately is how extremely skewed the artist roster is. The vast majority of leaders on Verve/Clef/Norgran were acknowleged masters. A mere handful of ordinary mortals made records for the label. And most of those had already made what reputation they have by the time they arrived at Verve. The only one in this list whose career seems to have been positively developed b Verve is Oscar Peterson.

On this view, Verve was not much like the other independent jazz companies. The other companies took risks, recording people who weren't well known, helping their careers along. Norman Granz played it safe. In this, he seems to have been acting rather more like a major than an indie.

Strangely enough, the firm became more adventurous after it had been sold to MGM and Creed Taylor came in. Sure, the firm still took on acknowledged masters

Wes Montgomery

Jimmy Smith

Gene Ammons

Cal Tjader

but they also recorded

George Benson

Curtis Amy

Wynton Kelly

Willie Bobo

Kai Winding

Walter Wanderley

Grant Green

Donald Byrd

(I expect there are quite a few I've missed, but I don't mind.)

On the other hand...

Suppose there had not been a Verve to take on these people? Quite likely they'd not have been beating a path to Blue Note, Atlantic, Chess, Riverside, Contemporary, Pacific Jazz, Roulette, Roost, King etc. More than likely most would have gone to a major. And have been put under the usual pressures to which jazz musicians at major companies are subject.

So it's not all bad, is it?

MG

[GA Russell]

I hear quite a bit of 50s Verve on Sirius, and for the most part I find it boring. The artists seem to have lost their youth.

On the other hand, I think I have liked all of the Creed Taylor 60s Verves that I've heard over the years. Taylor made records that were quality, but wouldn't scare off the people who didn't consider themselves to be jazz fans.

[Teasing the Korean]

When I think of Verve, I first think of the groovy stuff from the 60s, like Cal Tjader, Gary McFarland, Willie Bobo, Lalo Schifrin, Getz/Gilberto, Walter Wanderley, etc.

I think Verve in the 60s hit a perfect balance between "real" jazz and the groovy, international, jet set now sound.

Edited June 29, 2008 by Teasing the Korean

[user0815]

you've missed the great ricky nelson who started his career in 1957 with two singles on the verve label ("teenagers romance" & "you're my one and only love" - with barney kessel on guitar)!

also ... i think it could be argued that the case of stan getz does not fit too well with your argument ... by the time getz became a verve artist he still was a young and upcoming artist, at least i think so ... he certainly wasn't "past his prime"

Edited June 29, 2008 by user0815

[Chuck Nessa]

To a large extent Granz recorded folks he booked on tours, JATP and otherwise.

[JSngry]

Also worth remembering how commercially "out of fashion" many of those 1950s Verve leaders were outside of the Verve/JATP contexts. In that regard, Granz could be seen as much patron as employer, if one doesn't get too..."sentimental" about it.

[Teasing the Korean]

Don't forget Machito and Chico O'Farrill in the 1950s list.

[Christiern]

Chuck is right, Verve (and the Granz labels that preceded it) were essentially an extension of a touring concert group, JATP. The early studio recordings were pretty awful, technically--Norman did not seem too interested in the sound quality until reviewers began slamming his recordings (John Hammond and John S. Wilson were pretty harsh in the NYT). Hammond, of course used Vanguard to demonstrate how jazz audio could be made as palatable as, say, a little Mozart piece.

[Rooster_Ties]

How in the world did Frank Zappa ever end up on Verve??

Or the Velvet Underground??

I don't know any of the history of Verve's non-jazz endeavors; can someone elucidate?

[Chuck Nessa]

Post Granz. This stuff happened after MGM bought the company. I knew one of the execs of MGM at the time and it ain't pretty.

[JSngry]

Shelley Berman, Jonathan Winters, Mort Sahl...all on Granz-era Verve, right?

And Doodles Weaver!

[Dan Gould]

Granz could be seen as much patron as employer, if one doesn't get too..."sentimental" about it.

And we should be quite pleased (IMHO) that he chose to record people like Webster and Sweets and the others. These guys were not, to borrow that silly term from ESPN, "NOW" at that time, but because of Granz we have some mighty fine recordings (GA notwithstanding).

In the same way, Carl Jefferson could be seen as a patron of the artists (and style of music) he loved, with his Concord label.

[mjzee]

Two more who can go on the "Other Side" are Tal Farlow and Blossom Dearie.

I think where Granz got "adventurous" was in presentation: I'm thinking of things like "The Jazz Scene" and the various Ella songbooks. These were pricy, and appealed to the upscale consumer. And Granz was key in repositioning jazz as something for connoisseurs. I always find it fascinating that when he signed Bird, he vowed to move him away from blues-based tunes, when that was obviously Bird's soul. But I think Granz saw it as not upscale enough, not as appealing as, say, a Gershwin tune.

[Shawn]

If we're counting Norgran he also recorded Kenny Drew very early in his career.

Personally I'm glad that Granz was recording these cats during this era, there are some mighty fine jazz albums from the mid-late 50's on Verve:

Benny Carter (small group sessions)

Roy & Diz

Sittin' In

Coleman Hawkins Encounters Ben Webster

Gerry Mulligan Meets Ben Webster

Clark Terry - Clark Terry

Soulville

Play The Blues Back To Back

The Genius of Coleman Hawkins

etc, etc, etc.

[AndrewHill]

I think Verve took chances like on the said Velvet Underground, but Alan Shorter, I think, was one of the wildest choices to record for the label.

[gmonahan]

I think Anita O'Day did her best work for Verve in the 50s, and without Verve, we wouldn't have Ella's magnificent Songbooks, Dizzy's great mid-50s big band, Mulligan's Concert Jazz Band, or Johnny Hodges' wonderful off-Duke recordings. Lots of great stuff there.

Greg Mo

[Big Beat Steve]

... on the other hand

Junior Mance

Flip Phillips

Ruby Braff

Buddy de Franco

Joe Sullivan

Ralph Sutton

What strikes me immediately is how extremely skewed the artist roster is. The vast majority of leaders on Verve/Clef/Norgran were acknowleged masters. A mere handful of ordinary mortals made records for the label.

...

On this view, Verve was not much like the other independent jazz companies. The other companies took risks, recording people who weren't well known, helping their careers along. Norman Granz played it safe. In this, he seems to have been acting rather more like a major than an indie.

Honestly, MG; I don't quite get your initial post. What is that "on the other hand" list supposed to mean? Are there reservations about these artists compared to the first (longer) list?

And what's that about not Verve taking chances or giving (relatively) unknowns a try?

What about BERT DAHLANDER's "SKAL" LP (Nils-Bertil Dahlander, in fact, or "Bert Dale" for the linguistically lesser talented Yanks - BTW, anybody know of any reissue sources for this?), or what about that TONI HARPER LP (been a long time since she'd been a child singing star) or how about that obscurity by REX MIDDLETON'S Hi-Fi's (nice LP, BTW)? (And there were many more jazz-tinged vocal albums on Verve who did not make it to everlasting fame - probably about as many as on Bethlehem)

Or how about LYLE RITZ on ukulele? And you even got SPIKE JONES on Verve. And who TF was that ERNIE HECKSCHER orchestra?

So much for Verve not strainyg beyond the names of the "greats". Surely many of those recordings reflected those times but I doubt all of them were safe bets on becoming huge sellers (even by jazz/"jazzy" standards).

In fact, overall I find Verve had a fairly homogeneous body of work. If Verve was a stronghold of jazzmen from the "Mainstream" field that gave them exposure then this is no mean achievement and not bad as a counterweight to all those up and coming all-out modernistic labels.

But the first Verve artist that comes to MY mind when I pull out a Verve record remains TAL FARLOW.

Edited June 30, 2008 by Big Beat Steve

[BillF]

Shelley Berman, Jonathan Winters, Mort Sahl...all on Granz-era Verve, right?

And Doodles Weaver!

Yes, easy to forget that was also part of Verve. Somewhere in my collection I have an LP inner sleeve which carries the message:

The Jazz of America is on Verve

The Wit of America is on Verve

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Also worth remembering how commercially "out of fashion" many of those 1950s Verve leaders were outside of the Verve/JATP contexts. In that regard, Granz could be seen as much patron as employer, if one doesn't get too..."sentimental" about it.

That's a very interesting remark, but I'm not sure what it means. The jazz that was "in fashion" in the fifties seems to have been mainly revivals of big bands - Harry James, Les Brown etc - or easy listening jazz - Sinatra -> Les Baxter, via Gleason, Freshmen, Shearing, Fitzgerald - very little "hardcore" jazz appears to have been "in fashion" - Ahmad Jamal and Garner are about the only exceptions.

If you mean "in fashion" with the jazz public, well I don't really know what was in fashion with the jazz public in the fifties. I think white audiences were probably going for West Coast stuff, as well as the output from Verve. Possibly black audiences were more focused on Hard Bop, though honking sax men remained popular until the mid-fifties. Gross generalisations these and I hope they'll be read as approximations.

If something like this is what you intended, then I can see your point.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

... on the other hand

Junior Mance

Flip Phillips

Ruby Braff

Buddy de Franco

Joe Sullivan

Ralph Sutton

What strikes me immediately is how extremely skewed the artist roster is. The vast majority of leaders on Verve/Clef/Norgran were acknowleged masters. A mere handful of ordinary mortals made records for the label.

...

On this view, Verve was not much like the other independent jazz companies. The other companies took risks, recording people who weren't well known, helping their careers along. Norman Granz played it safe. In this, he seems to have been acting rather more like a major than an indie.

Honestly, MG; I don't quite get your initial post. What is that "on the other hand" list supposed to mean? Are there reservations about these artists compared to the first (longer) list?

And what's that about not Verve taking chances or giving (relatively) unknowns a try?

What about BERT DAHLANDER's "SKAL" LP (Nils-Bertil Dahlander, in fact, or "Bert Dale" for the linguistically lesser talented Yanks - BTW, anybody know of any reissue sources for this?), or what about that TONI HARPER LP (been a long time since she'd been a child singing star) or how about that obscurity by REX MIDDLETON'S Hi-Fi's (nice LP, BTW)? (And there were many more jazz-tinged vocal albums on Verve who did not make it to everlasting fame - probably about as many as on Bethlehem)

Or how about LYLE RITZ on ukulele? And you even got SPIKE JONES on Verve. And who TF was that ERNIE HECKSCHER orchestra?

So much for Verve not strainyg beyond the names of the "greats". Surely many of those recordings reflected those times but I doubt all of them were safe bets on becoming huge sellers (even by jazz/"jazzy" standards).

In fact, overall I find Verve had a fairly homogeneous body of work. If Verve was a stronghold of jazzmen from the "Mainstream" field that gave them exposure then this is no mean achievement and not bad as a counterweight to all those up and coming all-out modernistic labels.

But the first Verve artist that comes to MY mind when I pull out a Verve record remains TAL FARLOW.

Never heard of most of that stuff, Steve Forgot Tal Farlow.

MG

[king ubu]

MG, I don't think recording guys like Benny Carter, Johnny Hodges, Prez, Ben Webster, Roy Eldridge, Flip Phillips, et al was that popular a thing in the 50s. Not that I knew, really, but I think I read somewhere that indeed several of those artists then signed by Verve were pretty much out of the record business before Granz took them under his wings. Remember Roy Eldridge was playing dixieland gigs... (he also did one album in that vein for Verve). Not that that's a bad thing, but it was hardly what he wished for, I assume.

[king ubu]

Oh, and yes, I was irritated by "on the other hand", too - do you consider those minor as opposed to the "one hand" major artists? Or "serious" vs. "entertainment" or what kind of distinction do you imply?

[Chuck Nessa]

I think MG meant "marketable vs relatively unknown" names.

[Teasing the Korean]

On a slightly different topic, a significant number of Verve/Clef/Norgran sessions from the 50s are remastered from "disc sources." What's the story here? Were they recording directly to disc later than most labels, or were master tapes lost or destroyed?

[JSngry]

Also worth remembering how commercially "out of fashion" many of those 1950s Verve leaders were outside of the Verve/JATP contexts. In that regard, Granz could be seen as much patron as employer, if one doesn't get too..."sentimental" about it.

That's a very interesting remark, but I'm not sure what it means. The jazz that was "in fashion" in the fifties seems to have been mainly revivals of big bands - Harry James, Les Brown etc - or easy listening jazz - Sinatra -> Les Baxter, via Gleason, Freshmen, Shearing, Fitzgerald - very little "hardcore" jazz appears to have been "in fashion" - Ahmad Jamal and Garner are about the only exceptions.

If you mean "in fashion" with the jazz public, well I don't really know what was in fashion with the jazz public in the fifties. I think white audiences were probably going for West Coast stuff, as well as the output from Verve. Possibly black audiences were more focused on Hard Bop, though honking sax men remained popular until the mid-fifties. Gross generalisations these and I hope they'll be read as approximations.

If something like this is what you intended, then I can see your point.

MG

Cats like Hawk, Eldridge, Webster, etc had a hard time getting gigs in the 50s. Fact. Not "modern" enough.